"I want to destroy something beautiful."

[Tyler Durden]

Online low limit game, fairly loose and passive. New at the table, no reads on players.

An EP limps, I limp in the CO with QTo and the BB checks the option.

Flop comes T /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif.

BB bets, EP raises, I 3-bet, BB caps and we both call.

Turn is 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif.

BB bets we both call.

River is A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif.

BB bets and we both call.


Any ideas for me? Comments on all streets please. Thanks much.

[ElSapo]

You asked for my thoughts and I'll give them, even though there's a lot of people with a lot more experience out there. I've only been playing for a little under a year, so take it all with a grain of salt. Anyways, the hand looks pretty standard to me, once the flush card falls you're probably just calling to the river unless you throw in a raise to see where you stand, after the Ace comes I just check call it down... but that's just me, and I have my share of losing nights.

[rayrns]

With the BB not raising pre-flop it looks like he got lucky to be holding something like K-9 or 9-7. Your bet on the turn says you thought you were beat. Maybe a raise there just to see what he had and maybe get rid of the EP player. Then as you didn't improve you just have to go along for the ride or get out.

[Fitz]

Muck the QTo. It makes a very nice second best hand, as you probably found out. Seriously, it seems to me you will get plenty of chances to get your money in much better situations than this one. If nobody had entered the pot, I'd raise with it from the cutoff if I thought there was a shot at stealing the blinds, otherwise I think the Tommy Angelo bullet fold is your best move with this hand.

Good luck,

[anatta]

I play it the same way, the BB leading into the field and capping likely means set, J9 or flush draw, but since he got a free play, he could have a lessor two pair hand. I like the call on the turn, you have four outs and want to see the river and showdown as cheaply as possible. BTW, I play QTo (and any two offsuit painted cards) in LP.

[Tyler Durden]

How is QTo supposed to be played in LP? Should i be more or less inclined to play it from the cutoff with only one limper in front of me? Should I ever raise with it to get the blinds out and get it heads up with the limper?

[STOSH1]

BB cap on the flop and lead the turn, seems to me to be a made st8 they're trying to protect. (how I'd play one) If EP is playing a flush draw he turned it for "win" BB is "place" and you're calling down for "show" with 4 outs.

[Vehn]

If I had successfully seat changed to the left of the fish and the right of the tighties I would raise preflop. If I just sat down or was unfortunete enough to be playing online I would fold.

If when I started playing hold'em someone said to me "never 2nd-limp in MP or LP" I'd probably have a lot more money.

[Homer]

Preflop: Hands like this can be really dicey to play. Usually you end up winning a small pot or losing a big one. In LP after only one EP limper I either raise or fold with marginal hands like these (QTo, KTo, QJo, KJo). I make my decision based on EP's limping standards and the probability that the blinds will fold to my raise allowing me to get it heads-up. If EP limps light and the blinds will fold to a raise 100% of the time, then the situation is ideal for a raise. If EP is a tight limper and the blinds will call your raise 100% of the time, then you should fold. In between, there is a fuzzy area and you have to use your best judgement on what play to make. Being new at the table, though, I would just fold it and see how the hand plays out.

Flop: Played well. Even if BB's cap makes you 100% sure that he has a straight, you still have a call because you have odds to hit your 4-outer on the turn.

Turn: Call. You are getting 9.5:1 and closing the action. Even if you plan to fold if you don't spike a Q or T on the river, you should still call. You are 10.5:1 against hitting one of these cards on the river, so with implied odds (if you fill you will probably pick up 2-3 BB's) you have a call. Also, if your Q is a diamond (you don't say), you have a chance to make a flush on the river.

River: I think this is a tough overcall to make, even getting 12.5:1. I think the right play is to fold, but to be honest I'd have a tough time doing it in the heat of battle.

-- Homer

[Tyler Durden]

Thanks for the response Homer. I can add QTo to my list of difficult hands to play. I later learned that the blinds at my table seemed to defend too much. I should have folded here.

I didn't like my overcall on the river here, but the pot was getting large by this point. I'll post the results later.

If I could just avoid hands like QQ when my opponent has KK...

[Tyler Durden]

I'll post the results later today.

[RockLobster]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If when I started playing hold'em someone said to me "never 2nd-limp in MP or LP" I'd probably have a lot more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I love this site! Gems like this have really helped me out, thanks for another one to add to my list, vehn. I can't see how any noob can't get noticeably better by just spending some time each day to review and take notes from posts like this.

[Tyler Durden]

Yea RockLobster, I was thinking the same thing when I read his post.

Oh well, you have to take the useless with the good, I guess.

[Dynasty]

Pre-flop, I would almost always raise with QTo in the cutoff after just one limper. You will take down many pots simply by betting the flop no matter what comes.

[Robk]

"Yea RockLobster, I was thinking the same thing when I read his post"

You should spend some time thinking about why limping here is a bad idea. That might improve your game, rather than expecting someone on a forum to do it for you, so you can print it off an memorize what they wrote. Vehn's post made me think about why it was such a bad idea. These were my ideas and I certainly don't think they're all correct. But it always helps to think about poker away from the table.

1. How good is this limper? Probably bad, if he open limped from that spot. If you're first in at this point any playable hand is worth a raise because you have the added equity of maybe stealing the blinds and maybe forcing out those who had better position/hands than you. So this guy limps. He probably sucks, and has crap. You see, when someone limps like this he sets off a red flag that he has garbage. So other players behind him will now raise a wide variety of hands, knowing that they can steal if he misses, which he probably will, and maybe make something anyway. But maybe the open limper is a good player. Good players will occasionally limpreraise with a great hand in this spot as a counter strategy to this read, and as a way to get more money than the blind money into the pot. So if this guy is good and openlimping there, my QTo is headed for the muck.

2. But like I said this guy is probably bad, so what do you do then when he limps in front of you. Well, I guess the next thing you might want to consider is how likely the blinds are to defend. If they're ultra loose, lean toward folding that QTo. Why? Well, do you really want to play against 4 players with this hand? You apparently do, because you limped. But I don't, because QTo just isn't that good even with position. And you're not even guarnteed that coveted position when you limp here! Against 4 players, you're going to have to show down a hand to win at this limit. What winning hand are you intending on making? You make a pair less than one third of the time to begin with. And do you really like this pair? Flop = K Q 6. How about this one? Flop = A T 4. How about Flop = T 7 6 all clubs? How about this flop Q T 4. You might still lose LOL. You get the idea. Sure sometimes you'll flop a straight, but you really won't be adequately compensated by the one stuck guy calling you down with an underpair. In fact I don't really want to play QTo against any number of opponents, but especially not more than 2. Against one or two I sort of like the high card strength. So you don't like a 4 handed pot. This means limping is definitely out, and raising is out if the blinds are loose. You know what that leaves.

3. Okay, so say the blinds are tightwads, the limper is bad, you've got QTo. Raising is maybe an option. What's next to think about. Ah yes, the players behind you. Are they good? Well, if they are they're going to realize you might be putting a play on the crappy limper and reraise you with ATo. Now you're out of position, heads up, for 3 bets, against a better hand. Sounds like profit to me! Hell, one of them might even wake up with a real hand. So you want few seats left to act after you, and bad players in those seats. Tells may be helpful here, if you have any.

4. Right, so now you thought about the limper, the blinds, the idiots behind you, and you're ready to raise this sucker up and steal his small bet. But wait, there's more! What kind of bad is this bad player? Is he weak and likely to throw his hand if he misses the flop? Then good, be inclined to raise him. Is he straightforward, and will his actions let you define what he has? &lt;This is key IMO&gt; If he is, raise it up. Is he overaggressive and tricky? Let it go. If you think you can get the money without a struggle when he airballs, go for it. There are dozens of factors in his style that you could consider that would make you more inclined to raise or let him go. In other words you have to observe how your opponents play, and play poker well enough to adjust.

[anatta]

I think if the blinds are loose, you can still call the one limper given your position with "trouble hands". If, given loose blinds, your default play is to fold KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT on the button or cuttoff after one normal-playing limper, I think you are playing too tight.

I disagree that this is a raise or fold. You have a chance to see the flop cheaply, with position with 2 big cards. Just because you cannot isolate, does mean you can't play it. There was a post last week called "Boring KTo hand". There, on the button with 2 limpers, many advocated just calling. I think its similar to this situation when you factor in loose blinds.

I agree that raising the one limper is attractive if the blinds are tight, and I admit I could do more of this. I prefer to try to isolate with hands that can win unimproved (small pocket pairs or AXs). I think QT is almost always too weak, but raising one weak playing limper with KJ and KT is something I need to do more of.

[Dynasty]

You have a chance to see the flop cheaply, with position with 2 big cards.

But, why would you allow your opponents to see the flop cheaply when you've got these adavantages?

[Tyler Durden]

[Tyler Durden]

Chop it up. Unfortunately, I didn't get any of it. The EP limper had J9s for the flopped straight and the BB had J9o.

I can't believe how passively it was played.

[anatta]

Although I have big cards, my only advantage is position.

I think that QJo, QTo, JTo are weaker than the hands that an average player will limp in from EP or MP. These hand represent the bottom of what I limp in from and are playable because I have less fear of a raise, and I can expect the best position throughout the hand. The limper I am isolating does not have these advantages, so presumably his actual hand is a favorite to my hand heads up.

I agree that KJ and KT should usually be raised to isolate if the limper is weak or loose. However, if the blinds are loose, calling station types who don't like to fold, then I would just call with these hands as well.

Finally, you may be right on all of this, I haven't tried it your way.

[Jeffage]

With one limper, Q10o is an easy fold in LP. The only reason to play this after only one caller would be if he played badly. Not worth playing. After that you played ok, though the river is a tough call. Pot is too big to fold though...if you have any indication that the BB may be betting with just the Ad and something like top pair I may take a chance and raise the turn...I think he would usually checkraise a flush on the turn. Just an option, but how you played it was ok (besides not mucking it pre).

Jeff

[Dynasty]

With one limper, Q10o is an easy fold in LP.

Then, when is it playable?

[Dynasty]

I think that QJo, QTo, JTo are weaker than the hands that an average player will limp in from EP or MP....The limper I am isolating does not have these advantages, so presumably his actual hand is a favorite to my hand heads up.

Many hands will play out like this.

An EP/MP open-limps with QJo (or KTo). You're in LP and raise with QTo. One of the blinds calls or maybe both blinds fold. The flop is taken by yourself and one or two opponents.

The flop is: 9h,6s,2d

Blind checks. EP/MP checks. You bet. Both opponents fold.

You start stacking your 3+ big bet pot.

You don't just raise pre-flop because you may have the best hand against a weak EP/MP limper. You also raise because it allows you to steal the pot on the flop. Or, you can get KJo to fold on a Ten-high flop despite that hand drawing live to 6 outs.

Your approach is to focused on making a hand. That's not the ideal stategy in short-handed pots.

[anatta]

Perhaps you are right and I think I will try it your way 50% of the time. I need to vary my play more anyways. However, it seems if I raise at the Lucky Lady (rem Dave in Cali's place?), I will attract more flop callers. The pot is bigger and they know that the flop missed me.. Now I have put in 1.5 big bets with Queen friggin Ten offsuit, and I am left with a tough decision on the turn if checked to.

By just limping, it might just go check, check, I bet..."Oh well pot too small I fold, me too".

[rigoletto]

You forget the times where you steal on an A-high flop!!! A scary board likely looks just as scary to your opponents!

[FishyWhale]

I guess I´d also call even though I would expect to either see a straight, a set, or a flush when BB is still betting on river, so it would be possible to make a tough fold if you know your opponents very well.

Did you consider raising preflop?

[FishyWhale]