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kapw7

07-08-2005, 06:22 PM

Hand 1
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG looks tight. BB typically loose

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (1.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

How is the check? I'm afraid of them folding so I give them one more chance to draw to second best

River: (1.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls.

I don't want to go for the overcall since BB will most likely fold and I can't see UTG having a full house

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Hand 2
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP is a maniac

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold.

I know my position and hand suck blah-blah but I'm not missing the opportunity to go HU with the maniac.

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls. (I pretend the J doesn't exist)

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Hand 3

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Both loose passive.

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Do you bet this? I don't want to give a free card but I don't want to invest more money after I was called by both and the pot is small.

River: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds.

What else?

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Apologies for sending too many hands. Hope they ae interesting

jaxUp

07-08-2005, 06:26 PM

Hand 1: I fold or raise preflop, most likely a fold. You can't pick up enough bets pstflop to make up for this call. I just bet the turn. It will look like a bluff to many players.

Hand 2: I like it.

Hand 3: I probably bet the turn and check behind on the river. Not so sure about this one though.

kapw7

07-08-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I fold or raise preflop, most likely a fold. You can't pick up enough bets pstflop to make up for this call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I didn't want to raise since the table was passive preflop. I couldn't get to fold as well as I didn't even check the odds (2-tabling PS high-speed tables). I guess I took the middle decision to call which was as usually in poker wrong.

davelin

07-08-2005, 07:18 PM

Bet the turn Hand 1.

Kumubou

07-08-2005, 08:32 PM

Hand 1: Meh to the limp pre-flop.

You need to bet that turn. If they won't pay you off now, they probably will not pay you off on the river anyway. Most players will see it as a bluff and call you down with who knows what.

Hand 2: Given the read, OK.

Hand 3: You know what thier flop and turn cards mean? Someone is clicking buttons on thier mouse. I keep betting this like I am g00t until someone else gives me a reason to think otherwise. If one or both of them have a K, oh well.

-K

kapw7

07-08-2005, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:
You need to bet that turn. If they won't pay you off now, they probably will not pay you off on the river anyway. Most players will see it as a bluff and call you down with who knows what.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are capable of folding post-flop. I actually stole a few pots from them before. I like to play my hands differently sometimes and here I cannot see checking being less profitable than betting (it would be different if I played a typical PP 0.5/1 6max fro example)

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3: You know what thier flop and turn cards mean? Someone is clicking buttons on thier mouse. I keep betting this like I am g00t until someone else gives me a reason to think otherwise. If one or both of them have a K, oh well.

-K

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said I don't want to invest more money against 2 players that have already called my flop bet and especially with the pot being small. The diamond river card just helps me to forget this hand

Kumubou

07-08-2005, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They are capable of folding post-flop. I actually stole a few pots from them before. I like to play my hands differently sometimes and here I cannot see checking being less profitable than betting (it would be different if I played a typical PP 0.5/1 6max fro example)

[/ QUOTE ]
What second-best hand do you see people picking up on the river? The only argument I could see is here is trying to induce a bluff on the river, getting a bet that normally would not have otherwise materalized.

Why are you playing your hands differently? Are these players actually thinking? Mixing up your play is worthless if no one notices what you are doing.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said I don't want to invest more money against 2 players that have already called my flop bet and especially with the pot being small. The diamond river card just helps me to forget this hand

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this game that weak-tight? I can not believe that people will call you down with top pair and only top pair. I honestly think your hand is best on the turn more often than not, but you open to a lot of redraws. That board on the turn has a ton of draws on it but almost no made straights (only QJ, and you have two of the Qs!) and no made flush. Giving your opponents a free card here is terrible.

-K

TomBrooks

07-09-2005, 07:13 AM

Hand 1. Checking through the turn? WTF? I stopped reading here. Sorry. I'm not reading anymore of these hands. Now I'm going to go read through the replies for entertainment. Just curious, how did you come to be playing 2/4? How many hands have you played there, and how many hands have you played at other limits?

kapw7

07-09-2005, 07:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Why are you playing your hands differently? Are these players actually thinking? Mixing up your play is worthless if no one notices what you are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never underestimate your opponents and don't find their weakness as an excuse to play boring suboptimal poker. And yes, they are thinking.

[ QUOTE ]
Is this game that weak-tight? I can not believe that people will call you down with top pair and only top pair. I honestly think your hand is best on the turn more often than not, but you open to a lot of redraws. That board on the turn has a ton of draws on it but almost no made straights (only QJ, and you have two of the Qs!) and no made flush. Giving your opponents a free card here is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible is a terrible word. Remember I was playing 2 high-speed tables. There is a 15 sec limit to act and for 2 tables SH this is lower than 10 secs on avearge.
My thought was that by checking I save 1BB from a TP and I give up 0.8BB to a flush draw (20% he makes a flsuh) and ~0.9 BB to a lower pair (I can still lose from two pairs, trips etc). There is the possibility of a stright (a lot of ppl play QJ don't you think)to C-R me and the turn heart adds one more flush possibility. I've seen a LOT of slowplay in the table as well so a turn C-R is still a possibility. So all these data in a <10sec thought process combined with a small pot made me check. The post game analysis shows that betting the turn would be better. And one more thing I just noticed: My PF raise looks like a steal attempt so SB and BB might play with a wider variety of hands and thus it's more likely they defend with a middle pair. You see I'm not results oriented as in the actual game the worst scenario happened: SB made a flush and BB had a pair of Kings.

kapw7

07-09-2005, 07:39 AM

2/4 SH is not hard to beat. I have ~3500 hands at 3.5BB/100 at Stars and ~1500 hands at 5BB/100 at PP (ridiculously weak tight)) but full-ring is boring. Will you read the rest of my post now?

Womble

07-09-2005, 07:45 AM

Hand 1, bet the turn
Hand 2, fold the flop
Hand 3, bet the turn and take the free showdown

kapw7

07-09-2005, 07:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1, bet the turn

[/ QUOTE ]
Next one please
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, fold the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah. J doesn't exist

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3, bet the turn and take the free showdown

[/ QUOTE ]
What free showdown? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

bottomset

07-09-2005, 12:25 PM

hand1:
[ QUOTE ]
They are capable of folding post-flop. I actually stole a few pots from them before. I like to play my hands differently sometimes and here I cannot see checking being less profitable than betting (it would be different if I played a typical PP 0.5/1 6max fro example)

[/ QUOTE ]

then bet the flop

hand3: you really need to bet the turn here, they are loose passive, which means they have a much broader calling range than just a K, pretty much everything else you are ahead of, get a bet in there, fold if C/Rd, and reevaluate the river

bottomset

07-09-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Never underestimate your opponents and don't find their weakness as an excuse to play boring suboptimal poker. And yes, they are thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah you are doing a good job of making your own reasons up to do so just fine, no need to bring the opponents into the situation

[ QUOTE ]
Terrible is a terrible word. Remember I was playing 2 high-speed tables. There is a 15 sec limit to act and for 2 tables SH this is lower than 10 secs on avearge.
My thought was that by checking I save 1BB from a TP and I give up 0.8BB to a flush draw (20% he makes a flsuh) and ~0.9 BB to a lower pair (I can still lose from two pairs, trips etc). There is the possibility of a stright (a lot of ppl play QJ don't you think)to C-R me and the turn heart adds one more flush possibility. I've seen a LOT of slowplay in the table as well so a turn C-R is still a possibility. So all these data in a <10sec thought process combined with a small pot made me check. The post game analysis shows that betting the turn would be better. And one more thing I just noticed: My PF raise looks like a steal attempt so SB and BB might play with a wider variety of hands and thus it's more likely they defend with a middle pair. You see I'm not results oriented as in the actual game the worst scenario happened: SB made a flush and BB had a pair of Kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh you have 2 Queens, that cuts the # of QJ possible in half, making it much less likely .. you are def. results basing your thoughts here .. or making bad reads, they are loose passive, which means they like to call, with second best hands, let them do it

hooray this time, SB was on a FD, BB had a K .. but being behind on the turn doesn't happen that often with this player set .. get the value from your hands

kapw7

07-09-2005, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Never underestimate your opponents and don't find their weakness as an excuse to play boring suboptimal poker. And yes, they are thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah you are doing a good job of making your own reasons up to do so just fine, no need to bring the opponents into the situation

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry didn't quite understand this. English is not my first language.

[ QUOTE ]
Terrible is a terrible word. Remember I was playing 2 high-speed tables. There is a 15 sec limit to act and for 2 tables SH this is lower than 10 secs on avearge.
My thought was that by checking I save 1BB from a TP and I give up 0.8BB to a flush draw (20% he makes a flsuh) and ~0.9 BB to a lower pair (I can still lose from two pairs, trips etc). There is the possibility of a stright (a lot of ppl play QJ don't you think)to C-R me and the turn heart adds one more flush possibility. I've seen a LOT of slowplay in the table as well so a turn C-R is still a possibility. So all these data in a <10sec thought process combined with a small pot made me check. The post game analysis shows that betting the turn would be better. And one more thing I just noticed: My PF raise looks like a steal attempt so SB and BB might play with a wider variety of hands and thus it's more likely they defend with a middle pair. You see I'm not results oriented as in the actual game the worst scenario happened: SB made a flush and BB had a pair of Kings.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
.. you are def. results basing your thoughts here .. or making bad reads

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you missed my quote in bold

imported_CaseClosed326

07-09-2005, 01:15 PM

Hand 1
I would limp there too. It has been talked about in the HUSH forums a bit, and I think the consensus was that it is ok to limp with a pocket pair after 1 limper. Also if you had been stealing alot of pots from them why not try it again, bet the flop. Also bet the turn.

Hand 2.
Depending on how much of a maniac he is what do you think about 3betting this pre-flop to assure you will get this heads up. Have you seen him raise with alot of absolute garbage?

Hand 3
I know alot of other people have already said this, but I would bet the turn. There is no reason to assume someone has the king. A flush draw is far more likely, I would bet the turn and check behind on the river. The fact that you are at 2 high speed table is no excuse. If the high speed tables cause you to make hurried incorrect decisions than it is not good for your game.

kapw7

07-09-2005, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
I would limp there too. It has been talked about in the HUSH forums a bit, and I think the consensus was that it is ok to limp with a pocket pair after 1 limper. Also if you had been stealing alot of pots from them why not try it again, bet the flop. Also bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would try to steal if I was first to act. Being last I chose to take the free card not that I had any great odds to draw but it's not worth trying to steal all the time.
And the turn: PF was unraised and noone bet the ragged flop. Noone bets the blank turn so I assume that noone is strong enough to call with 2.75:1 or more realistically 3.75:2 odds. I hope to get paid off on the river if someone improves or bluffs or thinks I'm stealing after me showing weakness. Also this play makes a strong impression and I expect ppl to be less inclined to bully me when I check the turn in the future. Generally I don't claim that checking the turn is better than betting but I think they are close enough so I can play them both. This is my personal style.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2.
Depending on how much of a maniac he is what do you think about 3betting this pre-flop to assure you will get this heads up. Have you seen him raise with a lot of absolute garbage?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was afraid that he will cap. He did that before, I was holding QQ (I 3-bet) and lost to his 37o (he capped). For some reason maniacs get completely mad when you attack them

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that you are at 2 high speed table is no excuse. If the high speed tables cause you to make hurried incorrect decisions than it is not good for your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point to consider. I think mistakes are unavoidable at these tables esp. for less experienced players like me. I certainly have to work on that more. Just to add that I post here my more controverial hands or hands that I suspect I have played inaccurately or totally messed up and not the hands that I won money or played perfect.

Thanks everyone for their comments

imported_CaseClosed326

07-09-2005, 02:11 PM

Woaw woaw woaw....I think you are putting your opponents at a higher level than they actually are. Look through the hand histories and see what they call you down with, for the most part people are really really stupid and don't care much for pot odds. Or thinking for that matter.

As for him capping with 3-7, then all the more reason to 3bet. He is retarded and this bet could be for value knowing his range of raising hands.