second or third pair on flop

what kind of odds do u need to call with the second or third pair on the flop? I am thinking in terms of a full game and not heads up.I know it depends on your betting opponent and if there is a 2 flush on board. I was thinking seven to one on a non scary board. Thanks in advance.

Take with a big grain of salt. I'm not that good.


Well, I guess my question is what do you define as a scary board? I mean, if you flop the third pair, the board is scary, and you're getting 7-1 odds, you have to assume that the top pair's been made. (What are you playing to see the flop with? Unless you're playing crud, it seems to me that to have third pair there are going to be straight possibilities and a lot of high cards on the board. Third pair is not going to go far in that situation. Much it and save the money for when you have cards).


The thing is that the odds work against you. Yes, in abstract you might have a 10-1 or a 12-1 chance of winning, but if you're getting those king of odds, you have to assume there are a couple of better hands already made.

the info that you left out is absolutely vital to answering this question. and so the answer in a nut shell is, it depends. and in this case it depends on a LOT of things. you can not look at your hand if it existed in a void. now I take it you figured your 7 to 1 to improve, not win. remember except for made five card hands your opposition will ALSO catch cards and improving may not be enough to win. so we have to figure about how many times you will miss, how many times you will hit and still lose, and finally how many times you will win, and assign a dollar amount to each outcome, generally not looking so good now is it? but it gets better, now we consider your position. with your call are you stopping the action? if you are you know exactly how much a call will cost you to see the turn, if there are players left to act you must consider the possibility that they will raise, thus lowering your pot odds. also you must consider future betting, will there be a jammed pot on the turn? if you improve and it is jammed on the turn what do you do? that is a tough decision. if you want a example of a situation that you can call with second pair consider a 7 way unraised pot with you on the button you have A5s and a flop of 5 2 8 rainbow the first person to act bets and all call. the mere size of the pot justifies your call here. however this is the exception to the rule as generally you should muck second and third pair.

here is an example...lets say u have js9s in the big blind, an early position player raises and is cold called by a middle position player and u call as well...including the small blind 6.5 small bets in the middle. flop comes qh 9c 2d. u check, the preflop raiser bets, the middle position folds...about 7-1..is this a fold or a call? btw..I would usually put the raiser on ak and call.

I was looking at the second or third pair and considering the implied odds as well as pot odds.

I have read that the odds of hitting a gutshot are about 11-1 but u should call with as little as 8-1 on a non scary(no two or 3 flush or pair} board otherwise u need the 11-1 to call.So with second or third pair u may have 5 outs or about 9-1 to improve. I was thinking that the fact that u could also win a big bet or 2 if u improve would allow u to make the call with as little as 6 or 7 to one...however the implied odds may be offset by the times that your hand improves and is still beaten. I was just wondering what odds u usually require to make a action closing call against a probable better hand on the flop.

you can't just look at hard odds in this case. with second pair on a "non-scary" board you will almost always be looking at one or more top pairs. we don't need just the right pot odds for you to draw we need the right odds for a second pair vrs a higher pair. you have the same chance as the top pair does to catch and he starts out with a HUGE advantage over you. this is a difficult question to put solid odds too because of the implied pot odds at stake. the pure odds of you improving is about 20.3% by the river but for a general picture let's see what the possible outcomes could be:


1. you both don't catch. he wins. this will happen the vast majority of the time.(calculate it out if you want)


2. he catches you don't. he wins. this happens far less and might save you a bet on the end.


3 he misses you catch. you win. this happens a very small time as well and is somewhat offset by number 2


4 he catches, you catch. he wins. this one happens very little but costs a bundle when it does so it's importance must be elevated beyond it's statistical improbability


the higher the cards on the board the more likely you are looking at top pair. having the second best pair is NOT a profitable place to be. this situation is almost always a fold.

there are of course exceptions to this, like in my pervious example it was possible that your pair was the ONLY pair made on the flop, in which case your actually leading and should raise to protect your hand. but if you are not getting incredible pot odds you need to drop your second best hand at the flop. if you looking for actual pot odds if you look down and say "wow this pot is HUGE with NO raising! I can warrant playing anything!" then you can try to play second pair. but even when you do often drop on the turn because those magical odds on the flop will have evaporated by the double size bet.

To reiterate: Js9s in the BB. Raised by early position, mid position cold calls.


Q92 rainbow.


You check, mid bets, third guy folds.


I don't see how on earth you can put the bettor on AK. AK has 6 cards that give him probably top pair, plus the backdoor straight posibility; he'd need six or seven players in the pot to make his bet a bet for value with AK.


That early raise is just as likely to be AA, KK, QQ (in which case you're practically drawing dead) or JJ. Heck, at lot of players would have raised pre flop down to pocket nines. QJ or QT are also reasonable things for a reasonable player to be playing which also have you beat.


If he had AKo, you're about a 3-1 favorite. But if he had a Q you're probably about a 4-1 dog. You've got neither an overcard nor flush draw, and not much of a straight draw.


The only time's I'd consider playing on here is if I knew the bettor would likely to try to bluff against my show of weakness, or if it was an extremely loose game. But even then, if this guy's any good, wow, it's tough.