2 sets on monotone boards

[AllIn3High]

Which did i play worse:

CO is unknown.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

UTG+1 ($120.95)
MP1 ($94.7)
MP2 ($100.25)
MP3 ($35.6)
CO ($78.6)
Button ($87.7)
Hero ($151.75)
BB ($18.5)
UTG ($72.7)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.5. UTG posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $3</font>, MP3 calls $3, CO calls $3, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $2.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($13) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls $12.

Turn: ($37) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises all-in</font>, Hero calls $43.60.

Final Pot: $161


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

BB ($226.5)
UTG ($291.6)
UTG+1 ($262.85)
MP1 ($433.67)
Hero ($232)
MP3 ($260)
CO ($184.6)
Button ($196)
SB ($201)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($10) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($10) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds.

River: ($20) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $20</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $55</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $125</font>, Hero calls $70.

UTG is 28/9/2.13 but he's been playing OK.

Final Pot: $270

[jkkkk]

Hand 1, Although i'm not getting away from this either.

edit: for some reason I read the call in question for being on the flop, giving you good odd's, I'm folding this in an instant.

[jkkkk]

Actually, i'm stupid, Hand 2, wow you played this wrong.

[AllIn3High]

Even though I didn't state it in my original post, I wouldn't mind hearing about a better line /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, i'm stupid, Hand 2, wow you played this wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, i think this was fine, although i'd have made a bigger river raise.

EDIT: a strong case can be made for raising the turn, but it's fairly likely that there's already a made straight or flush out there, so i think calling to keep the pot small and look for a paired river is good.

[jkkkk]

Ok, Hand 2:

Raise the turn, fold to a re-raise. If you get called fold to a decent sized bet on the river or check through.

Hand 1:

I like it, up until the call, you have odd's against absolutely nothing he holds. (within reason)

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, i'm stupid, Hand 2, wow you played this wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, i think this was fine, although i'd have made a bigger river raise.

EDIT: a strong case can be made for raising the turn, but it's fairly likely that there's already a made straight or flush out there, so i think calling to keep the pot small and look for a paired river is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a good point about hoping the board pairs, but i don't like A /images/graemlins/club.gif taking a cheap card here. Raising the turn also gives him the chance to get away from a made flush which is probably going to take the pot down @SD or a bigger set which might re-raise giving him a chance to get away from getting involved on the river with a paired board.

[elus2]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Hand 2:

Raise the turn, fold to a re-raise. If you get called fold to a decent sized bet on the river or check through.

[/ QUOTE ]

you automatically put your opponent on a bigger set?

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, Hand 2:

Raise the turn, fold to a re-raise. If you get called fold to a decent sized bet on the river or check through.

[/ QUOTE ]

you automatically put your opponent on a bigger set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not, but if villain re-raises, I'm going to assume its to a decent amount, which means he either he has the flush OR a higher set, allowing Hero to get away with the safe knowledge he hasn't got the odd's to pair the board against a flush and even if he had, the reverse implied odd's of villain having a higher set make playing the hand any further a bad idea.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
you automatically put your opponent on a bigger set?

[/ QUOTE ]

or /images/graemlins/club.gif flush or 86

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you automatically put your opponent on a bigger set?

[/ QUOTE ]

or /images/graemlins/club.gif flush or 86

[/ QUOTE ]

How about TP, the naked A/images/graemlins/club.gif or an overpair (with or without a /images/graemlins/club.gif) ? He's betting 1/2 pot into a limped pot no one has shown interest in, I think his range is a lot wider than a higher set / made flush / straight.

I'm not looking to get away from my hand on the turn, I'd much rather play a bigger pot in position on the river if the board pairs or a small one with a set on a 3-flush board. I don't see raising accomplishing any good.

In regards to hand 1: Don't i almost have the odds to call? I'm getting 3-1 on a 4-1 shot if he has the flush, but is it out of the question that he's doing it with a hand I beat?

[elus2]

if you're scared of negative implied odds then you shouldn't be playing small pocket pairs. that board coordinated board is heavenly to get the money all in. there are so many weaker hands that give you action once that river hits. if you're only getting your money in with quads or nut boat here then you're losing far too much value.

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
if you're scared of negative implied odds then you shouldn't be playing small pocket pairs. that board coordinated board is heavenly to get the money all in. there are so many weaker hands that give you action once that river hits. if you're only getting your money in with quads or nut boat here then you're losing far too much value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'd move all-in after he 3-bets the river? I was considering this but had a really hard time putting him on a hand i beat after he 3-bet me.

[elus2]

the flush or the straight is why you should be keeping the pot small until you fill up on the river and get the money in. if you don't fill up on the river then you have the added luxury of not being in a very bloated pot with a weak hand.

[amoeba]

I disagree very strongly with a turn raise in hand 2.

if he has naked ace and he hits 4th club, thats fine. He wins a small pot from me as I check/fold the river.

If he has a flush, I lose a chance at winning a big pot if I
fill up and I invest more while I was behind.

I think raise on turn is just horrible.

[elus2]

yes, i expect 99 to be raising preflop with those stats even UTG enough of the time that i am only scared of a few combinations of 77 versus an overplayed Ac.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
the flush or the straight is why you should be keeping the pot small until you fill up on the river and get the money in. if you don't fill up on the river then you have the added luxury of not being in a very bloated pot with a weak hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's what i said in my earlier post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jkkkk]

My reasoning, sets a price for any draws or weaker hands and also gives you a chance to get away from a made hand or a hand with reverse implied odd's.

Not raising the turn gives you a chance to only really extract a bit more money from a made flush should you pair up, I don't think any sensible player is getting all their money in on the river when the board pairs.

Although, i've only just noticed this, (not sure why no one else has pointed this out) a higher set would probably bet this flop and so its more reasonable to assume he most probably has a flush rather than a higher set given the action. Not sure how much I would trust his flop check though, its risky, i'll give him that.

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
In regards to hand 1: Don't i almost have the odds to call? I'm getting 3-1 on a 4-1 shot if he has the flush


[/ QUOTE ]

Almost isn't good enough.

[ QUOTE ]
but is it out of the question that he's doing it with a hand I beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't think of anything besides possibly A /images/graemlins/heart.gif5x, but if he calls with crap like that in CO.. nope I doubt it.

I really can't imagine a hand hes doing this with.

[AllIn3High]

Hand 1: He showed A/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif but the river was another 4.

Hand 2: He showed 99 and my hand was toast /images/graemlins/frown.gif