KQo - Board pairs on the turn

[hemstock]

MP1 is bad. Plays every kind of hands, tries to bluff with no hands on the turn and the river.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero ?

He could have easily have an 8 so I decide to call it down. Is that correct or would it be hurting on the long run?

[adsman]

If it was heads up I would call it down to encourage his bluffing. With two other opponents here I raise and fold to a 3 bet.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Bluffers like to bluff when the board pairs. It's actually good here (if he doesn't have an 8) because now you can raise to try to fold out button and BB. Just call the river. Heads up I don't raise, because even a busted clock is right twice a day. (Sometimes he will actually have the hand he is representing.)

[@bsolute_luck]

raise the donk bet. call down to a 3-bet- why would we fold to a 3-bet?

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the donk bet. call down to a 3-bet- why would we fold to a 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's about making the most on your wins and losing the least on your losses. Donky's get hands sometimes too. And what if it's not donky-boy who 3 bets but one of the other two opponents?

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluffers like to bluff when the board pairs. It's actually good here (if he doesn't have an 8) because now you can raise to try to fold out button and BB. Just call the river. Heads up I don't raise, because even a busted clock is right twice a day. (Sometimes he will actually have the hand he is representing.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, it depends on the board and the strength of our hand I guess.
Here the 8 could be helping us as we have worse K's and J's drawing very slim if not dead against us. Flush draws aren't folding. The only hand we really want to fold is a gutshot like Q9; and there's a chance button or BB could have an 8 if the donkbettor doesn't. I think I like calling down here.
Edit: We probably want AJ to fold as well. I dunno, I think it's close.

[aK13]

I really hate raising here. If he's bluffing, we want to continue to let him bluff. The players behind us are no threat -- they are not folding any hands that are beating us, and are likely paying us off with hands like a weak K or a J that will call for 1 and fold for 2 if they overcall.

I would also rather take that bet and use it to see a showdown.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

I would also rather take that bet and use it to see a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you're misunderstanding an important concept. This is a weak-tight rationalisation which leads to small profits. When you're ahead you pump the pot for all it's worth and make them pay. When you're behind and drawing slim you try and get out. Trying to just get to showdowns means that you're missing out on valuable bets when you're ahead. Which, according to the Theory of poker, means that you've played your hand wrong.

[crownjules]

I would pop him with a raise. By your description of MP1, he could easily be trying to take a shot at bluffing you on a scary card. If he 3-bets, that I'd consider calling down.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I would also rather take that bet and use it to see a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, there's a post around here somewhere- i think by Ed Miller about this same line. i remember it being discouraged.

and who says he is bluffing? he might be bluffing the 8, but he could also be betting a J, K, or /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flush draw and pay off. i'd like to fold Aces. i'd like to fold weaker Jacks or any pocket pair still hanging around.

i doubt this is a total bluff, and will pay you off. the reason i don't fold for a 3-bet is unless i've seen him donkbet something like this before.

[McGahee]

I think you guys are being a little harsh on AK13 and making this discussion a little too general.

Depending on the board, sometimes you want to fold draws by raising and sometimes you want to let them bluff.
In this particular hand I'm not convinced that it's clear-cut either way. I don't see why you'd really want to fold a PP or a J (unless it's specifically AJ). AJ and gutshots like Q9 are about the only hands I'd want to fold. That might be enough for me to want to raise, but I think it's close.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little harsh on AK13 and making this discussion a little too general.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? ooop. i didn't think we were. i thought we were having a nice debate.

the rest of your points are good about not needing to fold PP - as they're already making a mistake calling this far, and J-rag would already have their kicker counterfeited.

while i'd still raise at this point- to get draw money in now or fold them and any Aces still goofing around, i'm looking at the calling option too.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little harsh on AK13 and making this discussion a little too general.

Depending on the board, sometimes you want to fold draws by raising and sometimes you want to let them bluff.
In this particular hand I'm not convinced that it's clear-cut either way. I don't see why you'd really want to fold a PP or a J (unless it's specifically AJ). AJ and gutshots like Q9 are about the only hands I'd want to fold. That might be enough for me to want to raise, but I think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about you want to raise because you could just have the best hand and you like money? Oh, and you want to win the pot right now because even a PP could draw out on you.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are being a little harsh on AK13 and making this discussion a little too general.

Depending on the board, sometimes you want to fold draws by raising and sometimes you want to let them bluff.
In this particular hand I'm not convinced that it's clear-cut either way. I don't see why you'd really want to fold a PP or a J (unless it's specifically AJ). AJ and gutshots like Q9 are about the only hands I'd want to fold. That might be enough for me to want to raise, but I think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about you want to raise because you could just have the best hand and you like money? Oh, and you want to win the pot right now because even a PP could draw out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I might be able to buy that /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I'm not sure how often button or BB is calling the turn for even 1 bet with 77 though, but whatever...
I think our read that MP1 likes to make stupid bluffs probably is enough for me to make it a raise.

[Pedigree]

Definitely raise. You probably have the best hand. If MP1 actually had an 8 wouldn't he go for a check raise? Raise for value.