How and when are you allowed to take $ off the table or switch tables?

[Hellmouth]

Im headed back to AC in 2 weeks and I wanted to play the NL using Ed's short stack approach. However, online I just switch tables when my stack gets too large to protect my earnings and keep my stack small. Is it possible to take money off the table at a B+M when switching tables? Is it ever possible to take money off the table?

Also, since I have never played NL at aB+M, If I have a rack of chips on the table edge but it is not stacked on the felt is it considered in play?

Thanks
Greg

[sekrah]

Where can I read Ed's short stack approach?

Is that on the forum or in his book?

[neotope]

Usually when switching tables within the same game you have to transfer all your chips to the new table. However if you wanted to pocket some chips, this would be the best time to do it.

A rack of chips is a rack of chips regardless of how you are setting it on the table. I would never put a rack on the table edge for fearing that it would fall off, but I also never play out of a rack regardless of how many chips I have.

I don't know much about the short stack strategy because I want to get as many chips in the center as I can when the numbers are with me. Your best bet if you want to take money off the table is to get up and cash out and then go back and get on the list. However this will only work easily during the day because at night the lists will be too long.

[TomCollins]

You have three options:

1) Go home
2) Learn to play
3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[highlife]

the only time you can pocket chips is when moving to a different limit or a completely different game (ie from 2-5 NL to 1-2 NL or from 10-20 LHE to 10-20 stud). the floor will not allow you to abuse this either by constantly moving throughout the night. sure you could be an a-hole and pocket quarters while moving to a new table, but its very bad taste at best, and at worst could get you warned by the floor if someone spots it.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
You have three options:

1) Go home
2) Learn to play
3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man. I'm just trying to implement a strategy that relies on having a short stack and I usually only play limit holdem live. I know that you cant take money off the table at limit games but wanted to see what the deal was at no limit.

I'm just trying to get some info not be a scumbag. Maybe you should try not being a scumbag as well?

Greg

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
the only time you can pocket chips is when moving to a different limit or a completely different game (ie from 2-5 NL to 1-2 NL or from 10-20 LHE to 10-20 stud). the floor will not allow you to abuse this either by constantly moving throughout the night. sure you could be an a-hole and pocket quarters while moving to a new table, but its very bad taste at best, and at worst could get you warned by the floor if someone spots it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks I didn't realize that it might be poor manners. If I do decide to leave Ill switch to limit since I'm more comfortable there anyways.

Greg

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Where can I read Ed's short stack approach?

Is that on the forum or in his book?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its outlined in Getting Started in Holdem.

Greg

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have three options:

1) Go home
2) Learn to play
3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man. I'm just trying to implement a strategy that relies on having a short stack and I usually only play limit holdem live. I know that you cant take money off the table at limit games but wanted to see what the deal was at no limit.

I'm just trying to get some info not be a scumbag. Maybe you should try not being a scumbag as well?

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg taking won money out of play at any time is being a scumbag at limit or no limit. Tom's post may be a touch harsh but he is spot on. If your comfortable with your profit and don't want to risk it call it a day. FWIW a couple of the locals I play with 3-4 times a week do this and are considered scumbags also.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have three options:

1) Go home
2) Learn to play
3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man. I'm just trying to implement a strategy that relies on having a short stack and I usually only play limit holdem live. I know that you cant take money off the table at limit games but wanted to see what the deal was at no limit.

I'm just trying to get some info not be a scumbag. Maybe you should try not being a scumbag as well?

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg taking won money out of play at any time is being a scumbag at limit or no limit. Tom's post may be a touch harsh but he is spot on. If your comfortable with your profit and don't want to risk it call it a day. FWIW a couple of the locals I play with 3-4 times a week do this and are considered scumbags also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this is good to know. Most likely then I will stick to limit holdem. I am not comfortable playing with a bigger stack yet since all of my NL experience comes from playing the short stack strategy, and I would hate to triple up only to give it all away.

Greg

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have three options:

1) Go home
2) Learn to play
3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man. I'm just trying to implement a strategy that relies on having a short stack and I usually only play limit holdem live. I know that you cant take money off the table at limit games but wanted to see what the deal was at no limit.

I'm just trying to get some info not be a scumbag. Maybe you should try not being a scumbag as well?

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg taking won money out of play at any time is being a scumbag at limit or no limit. Tom's post may be a touch harsh but he is spot on. If your comfortable with your profit and don't want to risk it call it a day. FWIW a couple of the locals I play with 3-4 times a week do this and are considered scumbags also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this is good to know. Most likely then I will stick to limit holdem. I am not comfortable playing with a bigger stack yet since all of my NL experience comes from playing the short stack strategy, and I would hate to triple up only to give it all away.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Anytime Greg you can triple up and leave but if you play at one casino/club on a regular basis and cash out everytime you double/triple up and haul ass it will not go unnoticed. As far as taking money out of play this is just unacceptable and against most casino rules. I don't even color up or rack my chips until I am done playing.

[AngusThermopyle]

So, if I am at a $500 max buyin NL table with winnings that take me to $3000 and I change tables to the same limit, I can, in fact, must, put all $3000 down on the new table?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I am at a $500 max buyin NL table with winnings that take me to $3000 and I change tables to the same limit, I can, in fact, must, put all $3000 down on the new table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, that is correct.

[BoogerFace]

[ QUOTE ]
Im headed back to AC in 2 weeks and I wanted to play the NL using Ed's short stack approach. However, online I just switch tables when my stack gets too large to protect my earnings and keep my stack small. Is it possible to take money off the table at a B+M when switching tables? Is it ever possible to take money off the table?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't worry about it. With $100 max baby NL, you'll only face one or two big stacks. Avoid them and take the others money. Switch to limit after you have tripled up or busted out.

[neotope]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I am at a $500 max buyin NL table with winnings that take me to $3000 and I change tables to the same limit, I can, in fact, must, put all $3000 down on the new table?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are requesting a table change you would only be allowed to sit at a new table with the max. However if you were coming from a broken game you would be allowed to keep what you have. Some rooms even allow you to match the big stack if you are coming from a broken game.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, if I am at a $500 max buyin NL table with winnings that take me to $3000 and I change tables to the same limit, I can, in fact, must, put all $3000 down on the new table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, that is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that is incorrect. If a player moves tables by choice, he or she can remove money from the racks before sitting down at the new table. If he or she is forced to move due to a must move table, a broken table, or something similar then they must keep the full amount with them at the new table in most rooms (although I have never seen this enforced before).

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
Greg taking won money out of play at any time is being a scumbag at limit or no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Certainly, this is true in NL, but why would anyone care in limit? Or do you mean if you don't have enough to cover any and all bets in one hand? If that is the case, it would be foolish to be shortstacked anyway. I never do this, I am just curious if I am missing something.

[nbajam]

After all he is trying to practice a strategy given by the Jesus Christ of 2+2 Ed Miller, but you still manage to find a way to insult him.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
After all he is trying to practice a strategy given by the Jesus Christ of 2+2 Ed Miller, but you still manage to find a way to insult him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im headed back to AC in 2 weeks and I wanted to play the NL using Ed's short stack approach. However, online I just switch tables when my stack gets too large to protect my earnings and keep my stack small. Is it possible to take money off the table at a B+M when switching tables? Is it ever possible to take money off the table?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't worry about it. With $100 max baby NL, you'll only face one or two big stacks. Avoid them and take the others money. Switch to limit after you have tripled up or busted out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I also thought if we switched casinos or came back another day that I might play again. But if I can triple up maybe I'll use it to play at a slightly higher limit table than normal just to see how the other half lives.

Greg

[TomCollins]

Ed says nothing about ratholing. Yeah, its a good strategy if you are a moron and can't play poker. I guarantee Ed doesn't play this way.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed says nothing about ratholing. Yeah, its a good strategy if you are a moron and can't play poker. I guarantee Ed doesn't play this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom: Actually he does. Read GSIH's NL chapter. There is nothing immoral or illegal about this practice in most casinos if you voluntarily change your table. I have changed tables, locked up my new seat, and gone to the cage to cash out a portion of my winnings before, its totally cool.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
2) Learn to play

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like he does know how to play. In fact it sounds like he not only knows how to play, but knows how to play in a way that almost guarantees +EV. That is the goal in poker isn't it? Don't get upset at someone just because NL is an exploitable game.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Anytime Greg you can triple up and leave but if you play at one casino/club on a regular basis and cash out everytime you double/triple up and haul ass it will not go unnoticed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the right to pick up your money (including winnings) and leave at any time was one of the most sacred rules of poker.

Yes the people who lost may be disappointed that the fish (no offense intended to OP) is leaving with their former money, but so what? He isn't doing anything the slightest bit improper.

If the size of your stack makes you uncomfortable there can be no better reason for quitting.

[TomCollins]

Ed Miller actually states that he plays by the NL super gimpo strategy? Ed Miller is a smart guy and can make plenty more money playing POKER and not this other game. Yes, if you have no desire to learn how to play and like grinding out small wins, go for it. I'd be really dissapointed in Ed if he couldn't play a deep stack. As "quickly" as he's mastered limit holdem, I'd be shocked if he couldn't do the same in NL.

I understand Ed is teaching beginners this strategy, and that's fine. But I just really doubt he would use this strategy in practice. It is very -EV to play the short stack if you have any clue what you are doing, relative to the other plaeyrs at the table.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller actually states that he plays by the NL super gimpo strategy? Ed Miller is a smart guy and can make plenty more money playing POKER and not this other game. Yes, if you have no desire to learn how to play and like grinding out small wins, go for it. I'd be really disappointed in Ed if he couldn't play a deep stack. As "quickly" as he's mastered limit holdem, I'd be shocked if he couldn't do the same in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you gotta read the book. Seriously. PLaying short stacked has its merits as a strategy within baby NL - small capped tables. 1/3 of the book is about this strategy, and since it's a 2+2 its obviously endorsed by David, Mason, et al.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[mosch]

this is more than a little surprising to me, to hear that the book advocates a short-stack double and run methodology... Especially one that when practiced in a casino requires giving the floorman a bunch of extra work.

I think I'm going to have to pick up GSIH and see what you're talking about.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ed says nothing about ratholing. Yeah, its a good strategy if you are a moron and can't play poker. I guarantee Ed doesn't play this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tom: Actually he does. Read GSIH's NL chapter. There is nothing immoral or illegal about this practice in most casinos if you voluntarily change your table. I have changed tables, locked up my new seat, and gone to the cage to cash out a portion of my winnings before, its totally cool.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Another way to do this is to get on the dinner list. You can only come back into a game with the max initial buy-in, so if you've got $1200 on the felt in a Borgata 1-2 NL game (buy in capped @ 300), and you want to keep playing but don't want that much $ at risk, just get on the dinner list, sit out for 20 minutes, and come back. Voila!

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
You have three options:

3) Be a scumbag and pocket chips when changing tables. When someone sees you, and you get caught, try option 1 or 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only does Foxwoods allow players to take money out of play when changing NL tables, if you have more than the max buyin at the new table they'll require it. Apparently this isn't standard many other places, so go play limit (or some other game) for a while before deciding you'd rather be back playing NL.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW a couple of the locals I play with 3-4 times a week do this and are considered scumbags also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose the floors at Foxwoods are even bigger scumbags for requiring patrons to become scumbags, right?

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
It is very -EV to play the short stack if you have any clue what you are doing, relative to the other plaeyrs at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been discussed to death on other forums. I find the reasoning convincing that it's not in fact negative-EV against average low-buyin no-limit players. It is less positive-EV than other NL approaches practiced by better NL players. Less +EV is not the same thing as -EV. And it doesn't matter that competent NLHE players can do better, because Ed's audience in that book isn't even decent NLHE players.

Experience w/ Ed Miller’s small stack NLHE strategy (Long) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=2683066 )

As for the ratholing question, I believe Ed said somewhere that he expected his readers to gain large-stack NLHE experience through doubling/tripling small stacks up and then playing them. Given that there isn't enough large-stack material in GSIH to make one a competent player, the reader is left a bit high and dry. I KNOW my large-stack decisions suck, and Foxwoods lets me change tables as often as I like. I'm certainly not going to refuse to change tables just because somebody on 2+2 thinks they're the authority in declaring it unethical.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee Ed doesn't play this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he doesn't play this way now, since he's a competent NLHE player and his book is already in the stores. In GSIH he says that he spent hundreds of hours playtesting it in the process of writing the book.

He cites one story from the Mirage about playing two hands in three hours, getting kidded for playing so tight, and still having one of the kidders reraise with AJ to set him all-in with KK. Frankly, against players who will play like that instead of noticing that you're only raising with premium hands and folding, I don't see how anyone could think this strategy ISN'T +EV.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee Ed doesn't play this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he doesn't play this way now, since he's a competent NLHE player and his book is already in the stores. In GSIH he says that he spent hundreds of hours playtesting it in the process of writing the book.

He cites one story from the Mirage about playing two hands in three hours, getting kidded for playing so tight, and still having one of the kidders reraise with AJ to set him all-in with KK. Frankly, against players who will play like that instead of noticing that you're only raising with premium hands and folding, I don't see how anyone could think this strategy ISN'T +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sat about 20 hours of 1-2 NL at Borgata the last few days, and had numerous 90 minute stretches where I didn't play past the flop. Some of these times, I wouldn't even see more than two or three flops. Each time, I'd get some mumbo-jumbo from nearby players about how ridiculously tight I was playing. Then, when I did pick up a hand, I'd promptly get 6 callers for 7BB each. Point is: with most 1-2 opponents, the lights are on, but no one's home.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anytime Greg you can triple up and leave but if you play at one casino/club on a regular basis and cash out everytime you double/triple up and haul ass it will not go unnoticed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the right to pick up your money (including winnings) and leave at any time was one of the most sacred rules of poker.

Yes the people who lost may be disappointed that the fish (no offense intended to OP) is leaving with their former money, but so what? He isn't doing anything the slightest bit improper.

If the size of your stack makes you uncomfortable there can be no better reason for quitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 100% correct it is the players right to do so. I just think it makes you look like a nit if you do it as a practice. We have a couple of regulars who do that. They will get up and leave anytime they hit a big pot doesn't matter if its their first hand at the table ( if they do it early they go play penny slots until its time to go home) and if they are stuck they will stay until the sun comes up. FWIW these are also the same people that seem to berate the dealers/floor and throw cards when they are stuck. I guess my point is if the game is good stay if its bad leave but having a profit limit is a) costing you money if your leaving a good game and b) making you look like a nit if you play in a regular game.