A disturbing trend: fish that bluff [Archive]

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Bodhi

07-08-2005, 02:04 PM

The following are recent hands of mine:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

In both of these hands the villain is fishy. How often are they attempting these bluffs? Are they just doing it against me? Do I fold too much?

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Results: UTG+1 shows KJo

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results: UTG+1 shows KTs

davelin

07-08-2005, 02:05 PM

An +EV trend

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 02:09 PM

Yeah, but how often do you give up to a turn check-raise against loose-passives?

MrWookie47

07-08-2005, 02:12 PM

Not often enough.

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 02:13 PM

This is going to drive me crazy. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

deception5

07-08-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but how often do you give up to a turn check-raise against loose-passives?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think after these hands I would have to reevaluate my read...

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 02:18 PM

After playing 40-50 hands with these two it's hard to do it. Neither of them ever touched the raise button without trips or better. Maybe they saw me folding a lot and thought they could bluff me?

Anyway, 40-50 hands isn't that much. This trend really makes me want to call down more often.

imported_The Vibesman

07-08-2005, 02:21 PM

Funny, I was just saying in the AQo thread that I've been bluff-raised on the turn and the river quite a bit lately. Yes, it is maddening. And I've been thinking of going back to calling down more as well.

MrWookie47

07-08-2005, 02:24 PM

I've played against more than one guy who seemed to only raise when on a bluff. I guess a set was too likely to get cracked, and boats were meant to be value-called.

More importantly, this is poker. Even people who have only played 5 card draw for M&M's know that you're supposed to bluff when playing poker. It's pretty common for people to think that the best poker players are the best at pulling off and catching bluffs. Granted, this mindset is more prevalent in NL, but it's in limit, too. Capitalize on it, but you still don't want to be afraid to fold against these guys in a small pot.

jay1313

07-08-2005, 02:25 PM

I have noticed it more lately myself at the micro limits. Must have been a post somewhere at fishyplayers.com which advises them to bluff at the TAGS.

Aaron W.

07-08-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After playing 40-50 hands with these two it's hard to do it. Neither of them ever touched the raise button without trips or better. Maybe they saw me folding a lot and thought they could bluff me?

Anyway, 40-50 hands isn't that much. This trend really makes me want to call down more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to distinguish "trend" from "these two players". It is possible that you are being obviously tight or are folding in obvious spots. If I see a player bet-fold often, I'm more willing to bet/raise against him. Similarly, if I see a player raise preflop, call the flop, and fold the turn, I feel more comfortable trying to get in a bet/raise with a weak hand, or even a check-raise.

It could be that they've been doing it more often and have been getting away with it by not getting called down. This is why reads are more important than PT stats. If you see a player springing to life on the turn very often, then you begin to suspect something is up.

In both of these hands, villains seem to be assuming that your PFR meant high cards (AK-AQ, probably). So they are trying to bluff you off those specific hands. Neither hand has a card higher than a ten in it. The trend is that players don't raise enough preflop, so that when they *DO* raise, they have a narrow range of hands. Also, players don't like to call down with A-high, so they look for people to tell them to fold. Turn check-raises are things that tell people to fold. (I don't think the second hand counts as much because it's heads up.)

Notice the pot size in both cases. River folds would be unwise since you hold decent hands in both spots.

Buck_65

07-08-2005, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you 3-bet this turn? You're very rarely ahead on this specific board when you're raised on the turn. At least 2 pair seems incredibly likely. I call down instead.

BruinEric

07-08-2005, 02:34 PM

These are how I define donkbets.

The players may have seen you fold a raising hand recently (maybe your AK missed and you bailed on the turn, or maybe your JJ saw a flop with overcards with many opponents, etc.) and now he's decided you're weak and will bluff you out of a pot.

This happens quite a bit on Party during weekend evenings in my .5/1 games. This is why Party conditions you to call down surprising raises where on other sites a turn raise means something more often.

Your first hand goes to the ol' Limp Re-Raise situation. At least half the time I see this play, the hand is poor. The other half is AA/KK though.

The nut in hand 2 would've been more effective by bluffing on a scare card. The bet out on a 2 can't scare you away. A bet out on an A on the turn would have been more effective.

A common "scare card" bluff I see is when a flop like 4 4 T pops out and everyone checks to the button who bets the "scare trips." You'll also see nutball bluffs such as guys capping on the final round when the board shows J 2 T J J. Someone holds the fourth jack, another holds a top pocket pair for the FH and donkboy gets aggro with KQ thinking he's going to "represent the J."

kapw7

07-08-2005, 02:37 PM

These 2 examples are bad bluffs (you cannot expect to bluf out 2 ppl in a large pot or somoene who 3-bet the turn) but I'm sure there have been good bluffs as well that you are not aware of as you didn't call them. I guess it makes the game more exciting.

adsman

07-08-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 6 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you 3-bet this turn? You're very rarely ahead on this specific board when you're raised on the turn. At least 2 pair seems incredibly likely. I call down instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 2 pair is incredibly unlikely seeing as villian raised preflop.

Buck_65

07-08-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think 2 pair is incredibly unlikely seeing as villian raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't read preflop action carefully. I still think this 3-bet is really bad. Besides, I said at least 2 pair, not specifically 2 pair. Nice read though, hero.

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 03:31 PM

what's his name?

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 03:33 PM

I think you're right that the 3-bet is bad. Probably at the time I thought: "this guy's full of sh1t," which isn't a very good mentality vs a fish who raises you.

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 03:34 PM

I don't think I'm supposed to post screen names.

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 03:36 PM

why not? i think you just don't wanna share your fish.

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 03:39 PM

Just read the microlimit posting guidelines, and didn't see any rule against it.

davelin

07-08-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just read the microlimit posting guidelines, and didn't see any rule against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, just an unstated rule of etiquette.

Buck_65

07-08-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just read the microlimit posting guidelines, and didn't see any rule against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, just an unstated rule of etiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

In HUSH there was a thread dedicated to listing players with the most humorous names, and I know I've also seen a thread about who the best players are at whatever limit, and a lot of names were thrown around in both...

It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just throwing that out there.

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just read the microlimit posting guidelines, and didn't see any rule against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, just an unstated rule of etiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

kapw7

07-08-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Idiots don't deserve ettiquette. What's your screenname?

davelin

07-08-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just read the microlimit posting guidelines, and didn't see any rule against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not, just an unstated rule of etiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful what you wish for, you never know, you may find your screenname one day on one of these fish lists.

VoraciousReader

07-08-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

In HUSH there was a thread dedicated to listing players with the most humorous names, and I know I've also seen a thread about who the best players are at whatever limit, and a lot of names were thrown around in both...
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Just throwing that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread that. Doesn't there seem to be a qualitative difference in posting a list of clever screen names/super-talented players? Both of those are, in a sense, accolades. (Although, personally, if I were a super-talented player, I don't know that I'd want my screen name to be batted around 2+2 and kill all my action.)

Still completely different from someone coming across the 2+2 site and seeing "Buck_65 is a ULTRA MEGA FISH!! I'M TALKING WHALE!! COME GET A PIECE OF FISH PIE!!! CHOWDER FOR ALL!"

Other players, good, bad, indifferent, rock, maniac, or fish, deserve respect and consideration, not contempt.

Now I'll go talk to the OP, so as to not completely hijack his thread.

VoraciousReader

07-08-2005, 04:44 PM

I'm at work (shhh...don't tell the boss) and can't reference my poker literature, but I think it was Lee Jones that said something like "If you don't occasionally fold to a bluff, you are calling too much." Regardless of individual opinions about how tight he is, this is something that I felt instinctively was true.

I just try not to let it make me crazy. Sometimes I am going to get bluffed out of a pot.

Is it possible that you are overusing "I bet and fold to a raise"? Eventually, your smarter opponents (even the ones with zero understanding of poker) are going to catch on to that.

At online ring games (even though I play .50/1, lower than you), I don't like to bet and fold in the same street if I can help it, unless it's 2 cold back to me. People seem to remember it.

(Live and online tournament play, people don't seem to notice it.)

I also have stopped auto-betting the flop when I'm the PFR. I still do it most of the time, but I occasionally check it just to change things up. (BTW, I have huge respect for you and feel presumptious typing this...these are just some of my thoughts.)

deception5

07-08-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish deserve the same respect you'd give anyone else. Without fish you'd be playing against tags. Have some respect for the hands that feed you.

deception5

07-08-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to bet and fold in the same street if I can help it, unless it's 2 cold back to me. People seem to remember it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, this shouldn't be overused, but it can also be a good thing when they do remember it as these players don't like to fold to the 3-bet or will bet into you again on the river if you just call.

Sasnak

07-08-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why not? i think you just don't wanna share your fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll...

~

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Idiots don't deserve ettiquette. What's your screenname?

[/ QUOTE ]

same as i use here. look me up if you want.

chopchoi

07-08-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish deserve the same respect you'd give anyone else. Without fish you'd be playing against tags. Have some respect for the hands that feed you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I was just joking when I wrote that. I never berate bad players in games, and often defend them when others do so. I just don't see the harm in sharing the names of bad players we encounter. We are here to help each other out. That is a good way of doing so.

Furthermore, if a player wants to make donk bets, I don't see how it is violating his right to privacy to share what he did. If you don't want the world to know you're a donk, then you shouldn't be 3-betting the turn with queen high, or whatever.

davelin

07-08-2005, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't deserve ettiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fish deserve the same respect you'd give anyone else. Without fish you'd be playing against tags. Have some respect for the hands that feed you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I was just joking when I wrote that. I never berate bad players in games, and often defend them when others do so. I just don't see the harm in sharing the names of bad players we encounter. We are here to help each other out. That is a good way of doing so.

Furthermore, if a player wants to make donk bets, I don't see how it is violating his right to privacy to share what he did. If you don't want the world to know you're a donk, then you shouldn't be 3-betting the turn with queen high, or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we all chase the same fish around, the pond will quickly dry up.

Buck_65

07-08-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Buck_65 is a ULTRA MEGA FISH!! I'M TALKING WHALE!! COME GET A PIECE OF FISH PIE!!! CHOWDER FOR ALL!

[/ QUOTE ]

Who told you?!? I want names! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

parappa

07-08-2005, 06:29 PM

I feel like I've had a lot of hands lately where I get check-raised on the turn, agonise a bit over whether to call or fold, then call down and get shown literally 2 cards. However, I'm not sure if I'm merely noticing this now because I'm not getting pushed off of hands as easily as I used to or because players are doing it more. Also, I've specifically seen the increase only at 1/2 on Party.

apaugust

07-08-2005, 06:33 PM

On the second hand I would have lead out on the river and called a raise.

grjr

07-08-2005, 07:23 PM

I think these two turn raises were good plays and I might have played them the same way.

I've read through the thread here and haven't seen anyone mention the common thing between these two plays. Both times the players had an open end straight on the turn AND had two overcards (but no ace). If the OP didn't happen to have pairs both times they would have won unimproved. When you add that to the possibility of hitting the straight or pairing their overcards then I think that makes the turn raise a good play.

Oh, I forgot to add that many 2+2ers would have folded the first hand if they were in the OP's position.

Bodhi

07-08-2005, 07:25 PM

Where would you fold the first hand?

grjr

07-08-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Where would you fold the first hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying "I" would have folded in your position. I'm saying that many people would have folded on the river after having been C/R on the turn and then not improving on the river. This is what helps make the C/R such a good play.