Bluff Example

[QTip]

This is coming from Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker". This is in a section that give examples of bluffing.

This is the first one. Ciaffone has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the small blind in a four handed, unraised pot in a 10/20 game.

Flop: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

he checks, big blind bets, the other 2 call, and he makes waht he calls a "dubious call".

Turn: J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

It's checked around.

River: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ciaffone bets. He lists 4 reasons for his bluff. I thought of the first 3, but not the last one, and I LOVED the thought, but it's never crossed my mind in a situation like this.

Can you think of 4 reasons?

Edit: People get pissed about posting copywrited material. I really don't think this is a big deal, and I highly doubt Ciaffone would mind this being posted. If anything, it's a plug for his book. If you don't have it, get a copy. He'll even autograph it for you if you order from him.

[W. Deranged]

I'm not exactly sure how Ciaffone would have divided the reasons, but here's why I think a bluff makes sense:

1. Your opponents will be very afraid of all the draws hitting (the one card straight and the flush). Not only that, but the straight draw that hit was not the obvious open-ender but instead hit the 3 or the gutshot 8, meaning it may well have paired a drawing opponent (holding a 7) instead of making a straight.

2. You are in first position and have the first crack at the pot.

3. The turn was checked meaning that it's unlikely that anyone has a good one or two pair hand.

4. The multi-way nature of the pot allows you to exploit the "protected pot" idea: people will be less likely to put you on a bluff because you are betting into several opponents.

5. The size of the pot is enough to merit a bluff attempt given the circumstances but not overwhelmingly big so as to induce a lot of crying calls.

Are any of those on the right track?

[colgin]

Reasons for bluff:

1. You played the hand like you were on a draw and several got there.

2. The pot is laying you decent odds at 4:1 for your bluff.

3. Everybody else showed weakness on the turn (although one or more players could have been on a draw and actually gotten there).

4. The bluff still has good advertising value even if you get called, i.e., you will get called more often n the river with your good hands.

[Buck_65]

[ QUOTE ]
Reasons for bluff:

1. You played the hand like you were on a draw and several got there.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he didn't.

[QTip]

Here's the 3 I got:

1. Everyone checked on previous round.

2. You are representing a specific hand.

3. We could easily have that hand since blinds often have small cards.

Now, here's the one I didn't think of:

4. The person that did show strength in the hand has players behind him to worry about. He would be much more likely to defend the steal if there weren't players behind him.

I've not thought about that before and thought it was very cool.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
No he didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[Buck_65]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No he didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[/ QUOTE ]

What draw does he have that isn't betting or check-raising this flop? Maybe I'm giving too much credit to hero's opposition, but then again, if they're not thinking enough to realize hero can't have what's representing, they probably don't think enough to fold anyway, making a bluff even worse. Sorry if I'm not conveying my message clearly.

Edit: I don't play 10/20 and I don't know nearly enough about the opposition to even consider making this play. It looks really bad to me.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
4. The person that did show strength in the hand has players behind him to worry about. He would be much more likely to defend the steal if there weren't players behind him.

I've not thought about that before and thought it was very cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting point to think about. We're putting the original bettor in a position similar to "When You Don't Want Overcalls" in SSH. The other players in the hand make a difference on what people do and we can use this to our advantage.

Another situation where you can utilize something like this is when you're in a 3 way pot with a decent/good player who is aware of the other players and a poor loose passive or a maniac. The decent player may think that if you're betting into (or checkraising) him and the LP player then your hand must be strong since the pot is "protected" by the LP player. Or he would fear a raise from the maniac player behind him or that this player behind him made a hand. Yet you know that the LP or maniac player will frequently have a worse hand than yours even when you're own hand is weak. So you get this decent player to fold a hand he probably would've called with if it was headsup and you win a pot.

I hope that made sense....I've been awake for too long.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
What draw does he have that isn't betting or check-raising this flop? Maybe I'm giving too much credit to hero's opposition, but then again, if they're not thinking enough to realize hero can't have what's representing, they probably don't think enough to fold anyway, making a bluff even worse. Sorry if I'm not conveying my message clearly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you're aware of the majority of players who aren't aware of pot equity and therefore don't pump their draws on the flop. Check-calling is, like, what you do with a draw. Or the Hero could have a weakish draw (like he had in this hand) where betting or check-raising is wrong.

Regardless, usually with a scary board like this one, your opponents are only thinking about all those hands you could have that beat their own hand and not anything else. Of course, that's player and table dependant.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting point to think about. We're putting the original bettor in a position similar to "When You Don't Want Overcalls" in SSH. The other players in the hand make a difference on what people do and we can use this to our advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

Yes, it makes sense...you're alright /images/graemlins/wink.gif No need to get sleep yet.

[jstewsmole]

All good points.

He played the hand how a typical player plays a draw by check calling so i think a bet here is well worth it.

It does work out like that section in SSh.
Doesnt SSH recommend the BB to raise here after hero bets? So that he will get rid of overcalls and he could have the hero beat or on a bluff?

I have to go reread SSH. this might be way off base. especially since many players played this like a draw or overcards.

I love the bet/fold play. If you get called ur beat, Oh well, and if it gets raised u can easily fold.

this type of play IMO is what differentiates between a avg winning player in small stakes play and a really good player or even a midstakes player (live at least).

I used to beat small stakes games not even considering plays like this. In my earlier days i would just check the river here and not worry about it.

its great to come across ways to improve ur game when ur already winnning to begin with. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[W. Deranged]

BB should probably raise here if he intends to win the hand.

Promotion raises like that are about my favorite play in poker. The come up occasionally in hold'em (and can be used to great avail if you can get a good seat with a LAG on your right and a tight-weak/ABC type on your left). They are extremely common in Omaha/8 and one of the stock skills in that game (usually in situations where you are strong one way and marginal the other you can shut out overcallers who might have you beat one way).

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, here's the one I didn't think of:

4. The person that did show strength in the hand has players behind him to worry about. He would be much more likely to defend the steal if there weren't players behind him.

I've not thought about that before and thought it was very cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which gives yet one more reason to be aware of your 'relative positioning'.

~

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, here's the one I didn't think of:

4. The person that did show strength in the hand has players behind him to worry about. He would be much more likely to defend the steal if there weren't players behind him.

I've not thought about that before and thought it was very cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really a good point that I didn't consider either. Thanks for sharing!

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
What draw does he have that isn't betting or check-raising this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not going to debate whether a legitimate draw should have bet or check-raised this flop. (Of course, it would depend to some extent on what the draw is.) However, just because, you, I or some other 2+2er might act that way does not mean the typical player would. When someone check-calls the flop, and checks the turn it is reasonable to put him on a draw. Certainly someone thinking at only the first or second level would see it that way.

[Buck_65]

When you call a flop bet, it can't be assumed you're on a draw. In fact, nothing can be assumed, I don't see how anyone can put you on anything.

I see your point, though. I'm giving too much credit to these players in some aspects and not enough credit in others. If I had ever played 10/20, I'd have a more definitive opinion.