So i found this dream 2/4 table and promptly lost a $100

[phillydilly]

2/4 table, looking for how you would make general strategy adjustments
table avg was 41% VPIP 18% PFR
5 players with VPIP less than 25%
two seats to my left, 89/69/.8 @ 45 hands
immediate right 71/29/1.25 just a few hands
across the table 50/15/.44 twenty hands

i think all the perflop raising really screwed me up, especially when the player two to my left was bumping 2 out of 3 hands.

Other than moving seats a few to my left, any other advice?
Or do you pretty much just tighten up to group 1 and group 2 hands regardless of position?

Should I be preflop raising more? hope for a reraise from maniac for kind of a backwards isolation play?

any thoughts?

[mtdoak]

At a loose table, you can raise more multiway hands than heads up hands. For example, if its 8 handed regularly, you should be raising hands like JTs in position, but not hands like AJo.

[jb9]

Those tables can be frustrating and the variance nasty...

Usually better to tighten up and play big pairs, big suited cards, and suited connectors. If it is usually getting 3-bet and capped preflop, I'd be more inclined to raise with almost anything I was going to play (to keep the non-maniacs out of the hand).

Overpairs and TPTK will get beat by rivered 1 card flushes and odd 2 pairs, but straights, flushes, and sets will all get paid off fairly well.

At tables like this, I try not to go get too aggressive without at least 2 pair, but I will call down with TPTK or overpairs if they start raising postflop as the maniacs will play middle pair and top set the same way.

[SugarPush]

I have gotten killed at tables like this before and they can be really frustrating. My bad habit was playing too many pots. What helped me was tightening up. Then what I would do is play the players.

For example if a tight player raised I would lay down AQ figuring it was probably beat.

If a maniac raised with no tight players in I would reraise with AQ to try and isolate. I would assume that my hand was best and value bet like crazy when if an Ace or Queen came up.

I think that by only entering the pot with a good enough hand to reraise and avoiding the other tight players you can isolate against the maniacs.

[lil feller]

This is NOT a dream table. Dream tables are made up of loose/passive players, not LAGGY maniacs.

In this sort of game you want to play hands with nut-potential for as few bets as possible preflop, and be prepared for some huge swings. One pair is rarely good in games like this.

lf

[damaniac]

[ QUOTE ]

In this sort of game you want to play hands with nut-potential for as few bets as possible preflop, and be prepared for some huge swings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should be prepared to put in lots of bets preflop against LAGs such as these with your big suited cards and pairs.

[TripleH68]

A loose game is great. But my dream table is not this aggressive preflop.

If you play small pairs looking for a set you don't want to be paying three bets preflop. You would prefer a game with more action on the flop.

If you play suited connectors you can try to win big pots. Problem is if you flop a strong draw you may get stuck playing through multiple raises. The suited connectors will prefer a game that is more passive postflop.

I think the answer is to pay more attention to position. Don't get sucked into the action. You will not need to win many pots to make a nice profit in this game.

[Buck_65]

Bet and raise your better cards for value. All the excuses being made for tightening up make my want to vomit. If you're afraid of being sucked out on by a 3 outer, you need to move down in limits.

Just play significantly better poker than they're playing, it isn't difficult. Their mistakes make you money, whether the immediate results may agree or disagree. Sometimes you make a lot of 2nd best hands, sometimes you run over the table. End result: A lot of profit.

[aba20]

Variance is much higher at these tables. Some of the most frustrating tables I have ever been at are the one that you described, even thought they are most profitable in the long run.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet and raise your better cards for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone disagrees with this...

But what qualifies as "better cards" at a table with 3 very loose aggressive players who are building big pots and who are difficult to read is not the same as "better cards" at a table with loose passive players who won't bet or raise without a strong hand.

The issue here is not about fearing your opponent hitting a miracle card on the river, it's about playing big, multiway pots against unpredictable, aggressive opponents.

[Buck_65]

Push your edges, don't tighten up by folding hands with high equity. Sometimes they have you dominated when you think you're value raising (or even 3-betting) AJo preflop. If you aren't comfortable with this idea, don't play these tables since you can't handle the variance.

I'd like to throw out a nice "it all depends" while I'm at it.

[damaniac]

I don't think AJo is a particularly good hand for these situations. If the people are mindlessly raising all the time then you can probably earn a profit with it, but if their aggression is somewhat more tricky/random/measured then the hand is going to give you fits. I think hands like that and KQo are ones to specifically avoid except in LP in these types of games.

[Buck_65]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think AJo is a particularly good hand for these situations. If the people are mindlessly raising all the time then you can probably earn a profit with it, but if their aggression is somewhat more tricky/random/measured then the hand is going to give you fits. I think hands like that and KQo are ones to specifically avoid except in LP in these types of games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends. I'm not trying to weasel out of this one, it really depends on too many things to have any clear decision on paper.

[flair1239]

Without even looking, I can tell you that you wated a lot of money of semi-bluffing.

Many times in loose passive games, it is proper to just take your free card, in a situation where you may have bet.

There are oppurtunities to clean up outs and what not. But much of the time when you loose a buttload at these tables it is because you have a hand like QQ and you waste many bets trying to push A6o off his paired ace.

I am not saying stop betting, but you have to think a little bit as your fold equity is seriously diminished on tables like this.

[SugarPush]

Just to stop the vomit fest let me restate: /images/graemlins/smile.gif

When I said tighten up what I meant to say was change your starting requirements.

For example against a good player raising UTG I would fold an AJ. Against a maniac I would reraise with AJ.

In a passive table I would limp UTG with small pair, but would fold at a maniac table.

You need to adjust to the fact that every pot will be raised and reraised and only 2 or 3 players will see the flop. High cards are more important than small pairs or suited connectors. When you play your high cards play them like Aces and value bet like crazy.

My comments are based on a table where the maniac was 90% VP$IP 50% PFR. There was a calm maniac at around 60% VP$IP and 30%PFR. And the two of them would frequently cap the pot before the flop.

[oreogod]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/oreogod/barrygreensteinsays.jpg

Says:

Opponents Tactic
Extremely Loose play

Typical Incorrect Adjustment

Wait for a good hand.

Better Adjustment

Loosen your standards and re-raise frequently.

[thejameser]

key loose game adjustment: bluff/semi-bluff significantly less and bet marginal hands more for value.

[jb9]

I think the issue here is much more about the game's aggressiveness than its looseness.

You don't have to worry about betting for value when your opponents are happily capping every street.

[Buck_65]

[ QUOTE ]
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/oreogod/barrygreensteinsays.jpg

Says:

Opponents Tactic
Extremely Loose play

Typical Incorrect Adjustment

Wait for a good hand.

Better Adjustment

Loosen your standards and re-raise frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

THANK YOU.

[SugarPush]

Hmm, I thought that the general logic was to play the oposite as the table. If they are loose play tight. If they are tight play loose.

[Eliyahu]

To loosely paraphrase a Mike Caro book, "anytime your opponents deviate from perfect strategy, you make more money by playing more hands." Basically if they are too tight or too loose play more hands is the idea. Of course if they are too tight don't be ccing or reraising without something good but open the betting with less.

Eli~

[checkmate36]

[ QUOTE ]
i think all the perflop raising really screwed me up, especially when the player two to my left was bumping 2 out of 3 hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

You could reraise and isolate him heads up.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I thought that the general logic was to play the oposite as the table. If they are loose play tight. If they are tight play loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what we like to call an incorrect assumption. Loosen up, reraise more...if u dont like variance (good or bad) -- move to another table.