Move Of Honor

[UOPokerPlayer]

Anyone still use this?
I do if it's a loose table and someone has raised a bunch of limpers and i'm in the blinds. I get called sometimes, but i also avoid playing one pair hands in what's likely to be multiway oop.
I think the new MOH is pot commiting yourself, you do let opponents see a flop, but it's much more likely to get all the money in, and they're never going to have the implied to outflop you.

Example- I have AA in CO with $50. Villian raises one limper to 4. I make it 20. If i get a call, the money's going in no matter what comes. If there's a draw on the flop, i push. If it's harmless, i'll see a turn, but i'm pushing it there.

This is my new play with AA-QQ, (i've done it with as little as 99 against short stacks). Thoughts?

[TreyOfLight]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the new MOH is pot commiting yourself,

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally. You get ridiculous calls preflop, and with the pot so big your open push on the flop will get called by a pair of Js, the nut flush draw, bottom pair, all kinds of crazy stuff.

[fuzzbox]

If they call 20 (or 40% of their stack) then why do you think they wont call 50 (or 100% of their stack) ?

[mattw]

With AA and KK, I like to get it all in preflop. It may not be optimal play but it stops fish from calling small raises preflop with their pair of twos. Unless they hit a set, they are done after the flop.

I quess what I'm trying to say is if you are going to go all in on the flop, why not do it preflop? This eliminates any guess work post flop.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
It may not be optimal play but it stops fish from calling small raises preflop with their pair of twos. Unless they hit a set, they are done after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "fish" you mean "good players" then yes.

[subzero]

I also make this move with AA-KK (to avoid giving implied odds). I've even tried it with AK (got inspired by this (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14805&m_id=65565) article). Haven't tried it with QQ.

I think the reason for just betting $20 is that a bad player (who doesn't realize that you're pot-committing yourself) might call with QQ or worse. They might even re-raise (which you'd love). If you go all-in preflop, you might scare this player away.

I know overbetting the pot like this usually kills the action, but winning pots like this uncontested are probably a big reason why AA is my most profitable hand.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It may not be optimal play but it stops fish from calling small raises preflop with their pair of twos. Unless they hit a set, they are done after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by "fish" you mean "good players" then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny, I played my 2s like this last night and one a big pot. I guess I'm a fish. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
I also make this move with AA-KK (to avoid giving implied odds). I've even tried it with AK (got inspired by this (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14805&m_id=65565) article). Haven't tried it with QQ.

I think the reason for just betting $20 is that a bad player (who doesn't realize that you're pot-committing yourself) might call with QQ or worse. They might even re-raise (which you'd love). If you go all-in preflop, you might scare this player away.

I know overbetting the pot like this usually kills the action, but winning pots like this uncontested are probably a big reason why AA is my most profitable hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A better way to avoid giving implied odds is to learn how to release it when things go bad, or learn how to control the potsize, rather than just continuing to blast at the pot on all three streets with unimproved AA facing resistance.

Moving in is excellent if you think you will get called (you dont have to get called all the time, just some of the time).
Raising a lot is also excellent if you think you will get called.

If you dont think you will get called - then you dont need AA to do this - any two cards will do the trick - and you are losing a lot of value on your AA (because its still the best hand preflop, and if they will call some money - then that is good for you, and if they will go on to lose some more money with top pair/overpair/flush draw then that is also good for you).

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
A better way to avoid giving implied odds is to learn how to release it when things go bad, or learn how to control the potsize, rather than just continuing to blast at the pot on all three streets with unimproved AA facing resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said (I've learned my lesson with AA post-flop). Preflop, I can usually pick the spots where I can raise and move in. I'm still cautious about opening for a standard raise preflop and seeing a flop with one or two callers. But then again, it is only one pair. Just gotta be able to release it at the right times.

[DeepFryer]

[ QUOTE ]
I also make this move with AA-KK (to avoid giving implied odds). I've even tried it with AK (got inspired by this (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14805&m_id=65565) article).

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read the article and the concept seems pretty good, but I think he has exaggerated some of the percentages to make his point. He says:

[ QUOTE ]
Here is some quick mathematics to show why I think this is bad strategy. First, note that A-K offsuit will miss the flop about two-thirds of the time. So, presumably, we're mucking to a bet on the flop almost two-thirds of the time. I'll allow for some bluff-raises with gutshot draws from us or for the occasional check-fold from the UTG player, and say that we will have to muck on the flop about 60 percent of the time. Next, let's assign the UTG player a typical UTG range of hands ? pocket pairs of sevens or higher, A-Q, A-K, A-J suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you miss your hand 2/3 of the time. And you end up having to fold to a bet on the flop 60% of the time. This means that the opponent is going to bet 90% of the time when no ace or king comes on the flop.

This just seems a little high for the UTG player to be betting this often, when we're including 77 and AJs in his range of hands. Lots of weak players will raise with a hand like 77 and then become passive when overcards come on the flop. Also, they will check some of the time when they flop a draw, or when they try for a check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
So, let's do the math. When we cold-call with our A-K preflop, 60 percent of the time we lose just the three big blinds it cost us to call; 10 percent of the time or so, we hit the flop and our opponent check-folds. We win four and a half big blinds (our opponent's raise, plus the blinds who folded before the flop). The other 30 percent of the time is when our opponent bets and we've hit the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense. The percentages add up to 100%, but he hasn't discussed every situation that could occur. What about the times where you don't hit the flop, but the opponent doesn't bet? Earlier he implied that this will happen 6.67% of the time: this is the difference between 2/3 (when no ace or king comes on the flop) and 60% (the times when UTG bets after no ace or king comes on the flop). So this 6.67% has disappeared when he did his final calculations.

Anyway, I like his idea of raising with AK. I just think that if he's going to use percentages to prove a point, it's important to be accurate.

[UOPokerPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A better way to avoid giving implied odds is to learn how to release it when things go bad, or learn how to control the potsize, rather than just continuing to blast at the pot on all three streets with unimproved AA facing resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said (I've learned my lesson with AA post-flop). Preflop, I can usually pick the spots where I can raise and move in. I'm still cautious about opening for a standard raise preflop and seeing a flop with one or two callers. But then again, it is only one pair. Just gotta be able to release it at the right times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with what you're saying about being able to fold AA postflop. A leak in my game is getting married to these hands and going bust. My only question is making a standard raise and playing well postflop the most profitable? My belief is that I want to get the most money in when I'm ahead, and having AA pf is pretty close to having the very best of it, so why not put money there? IMO, pushing it in pf gets too many folds to be the most profitable, and making the standard raise gets the AA drawn out on too much, and has less likely chance to win someones stack. Thus, somewhere inbetween is the best, pot-committing yourself is the best.

[meleader2]

i did this the other day with AA. 4 limpers for a min raise i make it 6 on UB. they all called and i overbet pot, 1 caller a flush draw we split with a 5 high str8.

AJs calls a 6$ preflop bet. UB is just as good as PP.

[Cardinal991]

I read the article, and found it pretty persuasive when facing an EP raise. I.e. at the 50NL, coming (way) over the top of a $2 or $3 raise.

But does the concept of "fold equity" have much relevance if there is no raise but maybe 2 or 3 limpers for .50? Should AK really grossly overbet here? It seems to just be begging for a race against incredulous middle PPs.