30/60 canterbury vs worm33

[bicyclekick]

For once I'm playing my A game up at canterbury and at this point I'm pretty sure Mike knows this, but it's still pretty early in the session. I think we've played one pot together so far where I raised, he 3 bet, I called and check folded the flop.

6 handed, I open J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the CO, button folds, he 3 bets out of the sb, bb folds, I 4 bet, he calls.

Flop 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

He bets, I call.

Turn J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

He bets, I call.

River Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

He checks, I bet, he check raises, I call.

Eh?

[baronzeus]

Why did you call his c/r?

I'm wondering because I don't understand what you're ahead of here.

Trying to learn.

[bobdibble]

Unless he is making level 4 move on you, he can beat a J, and probably can beat a Q.

His flop lead looks like it was begging for a chance to 3-bet considering you capped pre-flop.

On the river he knows that if you were drawing, you will fold. If you have 1 pair, you will call if he bets. But, if he checks, you will value bet your pair, giving him the chance to CR. He is saying he at least has an overpair, and maybe better.

Now, there is the off chance that if he believes you are playing your A+ game that he knows that this will be your thought process. So, he could CR with his busted AKs nut flush draw or something similar as a level 4 bluff if he believes you are playing well enough to fold a J or Q to this move.

My guess is that this is the more basic scenario though, and you should have folded.

[daryn]

he plays goot

[PokerPrince]

I don't like this river bet for some reason.

PokerPrince

[Lawrence Ng]

Having the way you played it post flop BK, you failed to properly define how strong your hand was with either a flop raise or turn raise as if you had any overpair you would very likely raise it one on those streets and given you did have a decent draw on the turn, I would've defeinitely bopped it one there.

Having said this and how the hand played through, I like your river bet and I'd suck it in and call him on his c/r the river and pray he made a river move on you with AK, but I can also see a great opponent check-raising the river with AA or KK hoping to induce a bluff from you.

Lawrence

[arod15]

Sounds like he was playing his A game too. I might have just check called the river. Maybe im to tight.....

[PokerBob]

I'd call here to see what he had, but with no illusions of my J being good.

[Nigel]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like he was playing his A game too. I might have just check called the river. Maybe im to tight.....

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be tough to check/call this river.

[dcarlc]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call here to see what he had, but with no illusions of my J being good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving one of the top players in the room a extra bet just to see what he has? Mike gets $120 when he prob should get $60 at the max and thats questionable.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call here to see what he had, but with no illusions of my J being good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving one of the top players in the room a extra bet just to see what he has? Mike gets $120 when he prob should get $60 at the max and thats questionable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play bad.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call here to see what he had, but with no illusions of my J being good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Giving one of the top players in the room a extra bet just to see what he has? Mike gets $120 when he prob should get $60 at the max and thats questionable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

me too.

[ike]

This is all much simpler if you raise the turn, no?

[DcifrThs]

schnieds and i were just talkin about this hand ... i made the following 3 statements:

i dont know if i could call that river c'r...looks like he's doing an expert c'r...but knowing bk would see it like that its a call lol.

honestly it looks like bk just got PWNED by AA/KK/QQ/JJ

finally,

so i dont bet that riv after a good player bets both streets post flop despite the pf cap and then checks a riv and i have a marginal hand. its just too likely that im getting c'red and i have a hand worth a showdown.

schnieds agrees in saying that

yea i think mike put BK on AK or AQ. so he hcecked river to get BK to bet the AQ or bluff the AK

i dont bet that river.
Barron

[Schneids]

I would still call the river check raise, but I would have never bet the river in the first place.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I would still call the river check raise, but I would have never bet the river in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe your exact words after your epiphany were "so betting the river basically sucks nuts...but you're good juuuuust often enough that you have to call the river c'r"

it just sounds soo much better /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
-Barron

[MakhtarUNC]

I think you misplayed this hand preflop and on the turn...but that being said and done, it was still a good value bet on the river and you should call, although you are most likely beat, to see what your opponent holds and take this information further into the game <font color="red"> </font>

[etizzle]

I dont know what you're history is with this guy, but have you given any thought to a bluff 3-bet here?

I think he can find a fold here with the one pair hands (AA/KK/AQ) enough of the time for it to show a profit, as long as you haven't made this move against him in the past.

[Victor]

my gawd he played his hand well.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you misplayed this hand preflop and on the turn...but that being said and done, it was still a good value bet on the river and you should call, although you are most likely beat, to see what your opponent holds and take this information further into the game <font color="red"> </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

yes and no. yes, you should call. no because its not for information.

you're calling because of what the c'r looks like. for example, when i have AK and 3bet a tight players raise from the sb and the flop is A22 and i bet the flop and the turn is a 5 and i bet again and the river comes another 5 i'll check. the reason is because this tight player does NOT have KK/QQ/AA/JJ b/c he didn't cap pf. he has AQ-AT. he can't know that i dont have those hands so when i check he'll bet and i'll raise. most of the time i do that he'll still call with his weaker ace.

now despite the cap (which bk will do with virtually any hand he'll raise with from that position) mike bets the flop and the turn and is called on both streets. but now if he has 77 or 66 or 88 or whatever a middle pair is there that doesn't match up w/ the board including TT i think, he can check raise bk off of a better hand enough of the time since he's such a good player that bk should call.

so yes, he should call. but no, not for information.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
my gawd he played his hand well.

[/ QUOTE ]

especially if he has AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/77/66

-Barron

[elysium]

hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-flop raise no good...that's a good one. Cmon elysium, you're not gonna get me on that bs.

[bobdibble]

Ya.. really. This is a standard PF open raise from the CO, isn't it?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

Elysium is wrong on this one. Disregaurd. It's not close buddy.

Dude doesn't want you opening kq or AT either. A real nut.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

Elysium is wrong on this one. Disregaurd. It's not close buddy.

Dude doesn't want you opening kq or AT either. A real nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

he got the checkdown right though.

-Barron

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, but I play bad.

[Ian J]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, but I play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to speak for elysium, but I took it to mean he didn't like the PF 4 bet. Just a thought.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

pre-flop raise no good. check-down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop raise no good /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Wtf are your openning standards from the CO? I raise JTs UTG every time 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, but I play bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to speak for elysium, but I took it to mean he didn't like the PF 4 bet. Just a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, based on some previous sentiments he meant the open raise.

[jrlock50]

I've never posted before and I don't want to appear naive, but what was the purpose of the river bet? I can't picture too many hands that SB would call with that hero can beat, nor any winning hands that he would fold.

[worm33]

Bk said it was "still pretty early in the session". Well it was about my 10th-15th hand at the table. Maybe 20 tops. Anyhow I was definitly not in a "groove" yet. At this point in the session when I checkraise him on the river his hand has precisely 0% chance of being good. I might get fancy 7 hours in up 3 dimes, but not now. I was pretty sure he had exactly AQ. When the queen hit the river I didnt think he would raise me and if he did im not 3 betting that river anyway, and I knew he would have to pay it off.

[elysium]

hi bike

when you have a good aggressive acting behind you pre-flop in the CO, with JTs, and it's folded to you, raising in is wrong.

there is a misconception about how to play against aggressive players. aggressive players are also frequently under-rated. it is not always such a good thing to come into battle against aggressives bumping heads a lot. first though, and perhaps more importantly; and i'm not going to go into how often JTs is over-estimated; JTs works provided that you know how it plays; instead, you shouldn't open with a raise in that situation because it hinders you while helping the aggressive. you have given him the instrument that is his greatest asset; the ability to raise or reraise, and cut down your odds. that is not your asset that is his. furthermore, you don't know what that aggressive is holding, and that's his second most important asset.

he acting after you do; that's an assist for him. what else does he have going for him in this hand? the list goes on and on.

you only have a reasonably high expectation that his starters are trailing yours, but with all his weapons, i have the SB leading you in this hand; JTs or not.

you don't beat aggressives by building big pots. you beat aggressives by outplaying them. in this hand, you actually make this aggressive opponent play better because you have improved his odds while he has cut down yours. your swinging your JTs meat cleaver instead of sharpening it. its a butcher job. the pre-flop is horrendous. not just bad, horrendous.

everyone favoring a pre-flop raise here had better start thinking. your opponents out there will be. the fact that so many of you favor the pre-flop raise-in is not good. you don't play this game that way people. the pre-flop is a clear-cut call.

[bicyclekick]

Quit spouting off bad advice.

I can't believe you want to call there. That's ridiculous. I'm often raising JTo there, let alone JTs. That's more previous hand/player dependent but still. Just because one player is good and aggressive means I should'nt be raising JTs? Yeah right. Even if he wants to 3 bet me, I have position on him, and that's a big weapon. I don't think worm33 wants to get into too many confrontations with me out of position without the goods. He's definately not re-stealing with cheese because I can be easily moved off post-flop.

Even if the sb was a goofball donk big 3 better there's no way i'm mucking JTs. Aint happening elysium. Nor am I just calling. I could see where calling might be a little better than when we're talking about worm33, but I'm still raising and still feel that raising is best.

[pokerhooker]

If we all agree that BK should have checked the river, doesn't that make worm's check hoping to raise incorrect?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
If we all agree that BK should have checked the river, doesn't that make worm's check hoping to raise incorrect?

[/ QUOTE ]

but worm knew bk wouldn't, nay, couldn't help betting whatever hand he likelycalled w/ on teh turn. if its a bluff, he woulnd't have been called anyways, if it wasn't he stands to win 2 bets.

worm played this hand expertly.

-Barron

[pokerho420]

[ QUOTE ]
I might get fancy 7 hours in up 3 dimes, but not now.

[/ QUOTE ] Bk's preflop 4 bet is questionable and he played post flop rather abysmally. But in the end a check call would have been more suitable against someone who's entire game is "fancy". I don't think it matters where you're at in your session Mike in order to make plays, and Bk was right to call in the end, even though he shouldn't have bet in the first place.

[pokerhooker]

worm said he put BK on AQ or AK hoping BK would value bet the former and bluff the latter. Do you think he would have checked had he known BK had JT?

The logic is going to get a bit circular, but if worm KNOWS that BK is going to bet any hand he called with on the turn, shouldn't BK also KNOW that worm, by checking, is going to showdown any hand that had him leading every street. If worm had a hand he didn't think he could showdown, he would have bet the river and hope that BK folds.

[Jgents]

My primary choice after betting out the river: If I feel I have the best hand, I re-raise the C/R, otherwise I fold. Calling is the worst option in my book after betting the river. Second option: Check behind the river.

I like my first option.

[Net Warrior]

elysium, excellent post. Thanks for the clinic on playing this type of hand against good aggressive opponents. I'm puzzled by the fact that your advice seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Oh well.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
you have given him the instrument that is his greatest asset; the ability to raise or reraise, and cut down your odds. that is not your asset that is his. furthermore, you don't know what that aggressive is holding, and that's his second most important asset.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't theses 2 things true whether we raise or not? /images/graemlins/confused.gif Is not one of our assets that we have position but also that he doesn't know what WE have? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Also, you seem to be ignoring folding equity here. If we merely limp, we are giving villain a free glance at the flop with what may very well be an inferior holding. By raising, we may get villain to fold a hand that is currently ahead of us (Qxo, Kxo)).

Also by limping we allow SB to make a completion that is likley profitable getting 8:1.

I can see where an open-limp here occasionaly can be good for deceptive purposes, but to dismiss raising altogether (as with any move) strikes me as foolish.

[skp]

When worm checks the river, he is going to have a hand that doesn't beat JT way more often than he will have a hand with which he is planning to pull of an expert checkraise.

Ergo, BK should bet the river.

It could be said that worm outplayed Bike here but I don't view it that way. I think that they both played it well and worm simply gets the accolades because he won the hand.

If Bike checked the river (when he would have bet against anyone else), I would be more inclined to say that worm outplayed Bike regardless of what hand worm actually held.

[jrlock50]

[ QUOTE ]
When worm checks the river, he is going to have a hand that doesn't beat JT way more often than he will have a hand with which he is planning to pull of an expert checkraise. [ QUOTE ]



Give me an example of a hand that doesn't beat JT that Worm would actually call with.

[skp]

Ak is the obvious example. a medium pocket pair might be another. If Worm would never call with these hands, Bike would have a field day bluffing the river.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Ak is the obvious example. a medium pocket pair might be another. If Worm would never call with these hands, Bike would have a field day bluffing the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know about this skp. calling with a middle pocket pair after bk calls both streets. thats betting he has exactly AK or AT. slim bet...one id pass on. AT doesn't call the turn and AK in bk's hands would like raise the flop.

sometimes, folding the river is just plain correct. worm should fold those mid pairs here, not call. bk wont have a field day bluffing rivers b/c worm is a great player and bk knows this...1 hand does not give bk a 'field day' opportunity.

bk may get ONE extra opportunity or two tops but worm will adjust. ive never met him but i have it on good authority he plays extremely well.

so again, i think bk should check it down.

-Barron

[skp]

I agree with all of what you say. But one can generally only comment on hands in a general sense i.e. what should be the default play?

There may be specific times when you know a particular play is correct. So, if here, worm is convinced that his medium pocket is no good, he can checkfold. But he has to make a mental note of that and take what he did into account the next time.

All I meant was that the default play for worm is not to fold 88 or Ak here. If it were to be his default play (and he never adjusted), BK would have a field day.

That then brings us to the original question: What hands will worm call with that BK beats? I still say "AK or medium pocket". Sure, he may not call on this particular occasion. But then again, he very well might and as a default play, he should because Bike might have AK.

BTW, why do you say that BK would no doubt raise AK on the flop? He capped prefop, yet worm bets out. I may want to get to showdown cheaply with AK if I were BK unless I could elicit reliable info from worm by raising him. But since worm is a very good player, I am not sure that I can count on him to give us reliable info by his reaction to our raise.

If BK would no doubt raise with Ak on this flp, he should be even more inclined to raise with JT on the 97x flop.

[DcifrThs]

skp,

as usual u make great points....i say bk will raise AKo bk thats what i think he'd do...worm knows bk, worm would not lightly 3 bet that raise and would HAVE to have a great hand to do it, not one of those game theory things (or at least less likely the latter) ...

i have a problem w/ the following:

[ QUOTE ]
That then brings us to the original question: What hands will worm call with that BK beats? I still say "AK or medium pocket". Sure, he may not call on this particular occasion. But then again, he very well might and as a default play, he should because Bike might have AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact that he wont call a % of the time detracts from the value of the bet. you can counter that now worm can call more liberally on the turn expecting a certain % of free showdowns...but this is ALOT to keep in mind at any given point in a hand. its easy for us to say this and that...but in the heat of battle, how many of us can recollect it all? every choice? on every street? i dont think so. so again, i check.

-Barron

[elysium]

hi skp

did worm win it? hurricane season here and haven't had a lot of time to read all threads.

people should spend time reading some of mason's posts about how to play against good aggressive opponents. they are not easy to contend with in many situations, and while these type opponents are profittable, you need razor sharp skill to avoid the many pitfalls presented in the course of an average session with an aggressive in there.

anyway skp, i feel badly because i don't have the real quality teaching techniques that mason and sklansky bring to the forum. i am not expressing what is really happening in the hand as i should be, and not explaining how to handle the particular situation like mason and sklansk. i don't know a lick of jui jitsu, but as a hand unfolds, i beginning thinking in jui jitsu terms. other times, i see things in boxing terms. when i see a player throwing punches when he should be jui jitsuing and visa versa, it really....you know? i get....you know what i mean?

it's disheartening because i cannot adequately explain, really explain why the player should be doing one thing rather than another. it's like, 'that's a jui jitsu situation....no, no, that one is a boxing situation.' but if i take the time to explain one from the other, even i walk away not seeing the difference between the two situations myself.

the main problem is that the rythym of the game plays such an important role in determining what to do. a single hand has no rythym. i would infer that rythym must also be important in martial arts and boxing. posters often do very well, without knowing it, of replicating the game's rythym on paper. you can pick it up.

mike caro says he can close his eyes, turn his ear toward his opponent's hand, and hear what is going on. not too shabby. wasn't radar the deciding factor in the second world war?