Is this a terrrible play or am I a big dummy?

[KushielsDart]

OK, I just finished a $200 sit n go tourney at partypoker during which what I consider to be a truly obtuse play elevated me to the money round. After lecturing the guy on how foolish his play was (even though it helped me greatly), he suggested I post the scenario on this site. So here it is:

4 players left in a $200 single table sit n go
Me - Button - 1100 chips
Small Blind - 3700 chips
Big Blind - 2700 chips
Other Guy Not Involved - 2500 chips

I go all in from the button with AJ. Blinds are 150/300 I think, maybe 100/200... Small Blind smooth calls and then wonder of wonders, Big Blind pushes all-in. After much deliberation and cursing, the Small Blind folds. That's when I see my AJ is up against AK. Board comes out as 8.9.J.10.J and I suckout and triple up. As it turned out, the Small Blind folded KQ and would've eliminated me. So, instead of being three handed and in the money, it was once again a 4 way battle with one player missing the moolah.

Despite our attempts at telling the Big Blind how foolish his play was, he was adamant that he made the correct play. Although it was a little uncivil for awhile (partly my fault), things got a little friendlier and he suggested I post the scenario here. Your thoughts please?

(Inicidentally, the Small Blind ended up getting eliminated in 4th and I lost heads up to the Big Blind to take 2nd.)

[runner4life7]

I dont think his AK all in is that bad because if he can get the SB to fold which he did he is getting great odds on a great hand with lots of dead money in the pot. I would probably do the same as him but I play the 20s and 30s so take my opinion for what its worth. Glad it worked out nicely for you.

[Benholio]

1) This isn't really that bad of a play. He was trying to isolate you, and he did. He got to play a pot with over 2:1 pot odds, and a >70% favorite hand.

2) Nobody likes a table coach. Why would you tell someone how bad their play is? (whether it is bad or not)

I realize the reason you think his play is bad, is because you should 'gang up' on players to knock them out around the bubble. It is correct to softplay a sidepot sometimes, but not every time.

[HesseJam]

the BBs play is ok in my book. At this stage in the 200s he has a good enough chance to win, which a) will eliminate you and b) cripple the SB and c) make him the chip leader with a great chance to win it all. If he loses to an all-in from the SB he is ITM. Even if SB was so stupid to fold and he loses to you only (what actually happened) he has still some chances to get into the money.

From above, you'll see that the foolish plays had been made by SB. Smooth calling is very debatable here. IMO he has to go all in. And, no way he should fold KQ here after putting in 1100 already. The pot lays 4900 for his 1600. If he loses to you and the BB he has still 1000 left and if you lost to the BB as well he is already ITM.

[Matt R.]

The question is whether or not BB gets more $EV from the increased chance of you busting out if he calls and checks down versus pushing the SB out and increasing his chances of winning the pot. Without doing any math on it, I've gotta think the 2200 (Edit-- actually 2500 with the BB, 25%... even better) chips in the pot -- 22% of the chips in play -- is worth more than the gain in $EV he'll have from the increased probability you'll bust out. Especially with a hand like AK, which is probably way ahead of your hand range (and it was in this instance). Intuitively, I wouldn't do this with anything worse than AK though, since when he makes this play and loses he's now the short stack.

I think this is close though even with AK, and may be worth doing ICM on (I'm actually curious how close it is).

Oh, and for future instances like this, don't be a table coach, and DEFINITELY don't direct players who disagree with you to 2+2 to prove your points (I realize you didn't do the latter, but don't follow the lead of the player who did).

[Mr_J]

Yep like other guys have said, SB made the mistake. By smooth calling he either wants to attract a call from the BB or is scared of risking most of his stack. It's usually the latter so BB made a good move. Like other guys have said there is alot of money in the pot, he's usually a coinflip at worst and dominates here plenty of the time, and is still in it if he loses to you.

[KushielsDart]

Thanks for y'alls responses. To be honest, I'm quite surprised as the general consensus seems to be that the play was a good one. My philosophy is that it is always better to team up on the shortstack as long as it is not going to cripple either of the other two players. It is still not guaranteed money, but you increase your chances significantly. All EV considerations should be trumped by eliminating the final player who stands in the way of guaranteed profit.

Also, I probably deserve the lectures on being a table coach, but this type of play is one of my great pet peeves. It worked out ok for me this time, but I've been eliminated more than once when people make unthinking dry bluffs with a player all-in 4 handed which then allows that player to comeback. Although not the same, this type of play is a close relation.

I guess it comes down to your poersonal philosophy: Do you want to highly increase your odds of getting in the money or do you want to risk that percentage increase in order to have a higher chance of winning more money once in the money round? I will always choose the former over the latter in these sit n gos....

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't really that bad of a play. He was trying to isolate you, and he did. He got to play a pot with over 2:1 pot odds, and a >70% favorite hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. BB read the situation correctly and had the guts to make the right play, and you lectured him for this?

Even if he had made a mistake (which I don't believe he did) why would you want your opponents to play better by giving them your wisdom?

At least the poker gods rectified the situation and he came back and won. Perhaps he is a better player than you give him credit for?

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
All EV considerations should be trumped by eliminating the final player who stands in the way of guaranteed profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong! Sorry, but this is very, very wrong. The difference between 4th and 3rd is $400. The difference between 3rd and 2nd is $200. The difference between 2nd and 1st is $400. You should play to maximize your total profit. You are not anybody's friend at the table and any advantage you pass up means less $$ for you. Period. I don't really see this a a matter of personal philosophy, unless you play the free money tables.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, I probably deserve the lectures on being a table coach, but this type of play is one of my great pet peeves. It worked out ok for me this time, but I've been eliminated more than once when people make unthinking dry bluffs with a player all-in 4 handed which then allows that player to comeback.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe it was +$EV for the player who bluffed at the dry side pot to, if he couldn't eliminate the all-in player, let him survive (not let you eliminate him and get his chips) to divide and conquer. One opponent with 5k chips is usually much tougher to beat than 2 with 2.5k, if for no other reason that you will have to post fewer blinds compared to the number of times you will be able to steal the blinds.

SlimP

[KushielsDart]

Well, a couple of points:

1. He had no idea he was up against AJ. I could've had a pair or two live cards which would have significantly increased my odds of winning.

2. See my post above in regards to my philosophy regarding making the money round trumping EV considerations when there are four players left.

3. I would give him free advice because I want players to team up on the short stack. If I am ever in the Small Blinds situation, I will flat call and I will expect the Big Blind to do the same. When the Big Blind acts in that manner, it screws me...

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
1. He had no idea he was up against AJ. I could've had a pair or two live cards which would have significantly increased my odds of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

His push got the SB to fold, creating tons of dead money in the pot. Against your probable range of pushing hands, he's either slightly behind (PPs under KK) or significantly ahead (weaker aces). Either way, the dead money makes this a great situation for him.

[ QUOTE ]
2. See my post above in regards to my philosophy regarding making the money round trumping EV considerations when there are four players left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw it. It's wrong. You can enjoy your extra third place finishes while the good players enjoy more 4ths and 1sts.

[ QUOTE ]
3. I would give him free advice because I want players to team up on the short stack. If I am ever in the Small Blinds situation, I will flat call and I will expect the Big Blind to do the same. When the Big Blind acts in that manner, it screws me...

[/ QUOTE ]

There are times when calling and checking down are correct. But not every time by any stretch. As for Big Blind "screwing you", poker is not a team sport. He made the right play for his $EV. You do realize that one 1st pays more than two 3rds, don't you?

Are you one of "those guys" who chats during the hand telling your opponent to check it down or who asks another player if he will call a push if you don't? I have the sneaky feeling that you are... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[KushielsDart]

OK, you make some interesting points and I would agree that the only way to turn really nice profits playing these sit n gos is by finishing first. I'm going to think about it as I mow the yard right now... I may be close to being convinced, but it's going to be hard for me to give in on this one as teaming up on the short stack has been a staple of my play for a long time...

[fnord_too]

Without running the numbers, my initial response is it is a fine push, especially if there is any chance the small blind will fold.

Also, as a general rule of thumb, it is not a good idea to discuss strategy at the table nor really good to get in heated discussions while playing.

Welcome to the forums. Here is a link (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi) to a hand converter you may find useful. (You wrote the hand up fine, btw. I personally abhor raw hand history dumps. Run them through the converter and it will pretty them up, but make sure to preview the post because sometimes it screws things up slightly and you need to edit it.)

[KushielsDart]

Cmon Slim... I'm definitely not one of those players who talks during a hand. I very rarely chat at all actually. I never talk [censored] on bad beats on bad calls by bad players. I'm always respectful of people unless they're out of line first and often. The only time I insult people is if they've insulted me first or if they dry bluff at pots with 10 high and enable a 4th place finisher to stay alive. I wasn't disrespectful to the guy in this post until he told me to 'suck his d***.) I don't think I've been anything but eager to learn new things here and certainly haven't been the least bit disrespectful. You would agree I hope? I've been looking for a good forum over the past couple of weeks and like what I see here. Anyways, enough of this defending myself crap... The yard needs to be mowed... rurgh /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[45suited]

Good to hear you don't chat during hands. Seen too much of that bs recently on the bubble so it's a pet peeve. And as others have pointed out, PP is very weak in reacting to that stuff.

No offense intended. Welcome to the forum.

[wulfheir]

[ QUOTE ]
The yard needs to be mowed... rurgh /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a metaphor, or is your lawn actually too long?

[KushielsDart]

thx fnord! /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[KushielsDart]

no metaphor... lolol /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[nova]

[ QUOTE ]

2) Nobody likes a table coach. Why would you tell someone how bad their play is? (whether it is bad or not)


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said: I love when I run into it a have someone spout off incorrectly....I tend to just turn chat off, I for some reason play better with it off. I do toss it on after a rough hand to see if anyone is barking / bitching to possibly get a read on possible tilts but that's about it.

would you want someone coaching you? probably not. I think it was an isolation play on his part which a lot of us would do as well.