Internet VS. B&M.....Which is easier to beat?

[dande1135]

I have been playing poker now for about 6 months.
I play only online limit hold em 1-2 at Paradise. I play and study everyday and have what I feel is a very solid game. In fact at the levels I play I have gotten to the point where I am winning 5+ BB/hr. That seems like a lot, from everything I've read, but the mistakes the players make are so frequent that it makes sense to me.

My question has 2 parts:
1. If I am doing well at a 1-2 online game how do you think I might fare at the 3-6 or 5-10 B&M games?
2. What differences do I need to keep in mind to ensure success in the B&M games?

Thank You

[JoeyT]

Just for reference before I continue, over the past 9 months I am +2.5 BB/hr online at 1/2 (which is my usual limit there), and +2.1 BB/hr in live games (usually 4/8 or 5/10).

I personally think live games are easier to beat, even though at first glance numbers may not appear so. I have a higher win % in casinos, and you have to keep in mind that casinos play about half as fast as internet games. Also, the rake is higher and you have to worry about tokes at B&M's.

The usual 5/10 that I play in is a bit easier than 1/2 on Paradise or UB, and is about equal to a Paradise .50/1.00 game. I've found that live games are a bit easier, b/c you can get a better feel on your opponents. Personally, I find it much easier to read hands in person than online, and much easier to keep "mental notes" about the way a player plays.

Now, to answer your questions.
1) If you are doing well in the Paradise 1/2 games, I don't think you'll have any trouble playing in 3/6 or even 5/10 B&M games. The pace of play will take a small adjustment, but you'll be fine.
2) Keep your cool. My demeanor is a lot different when sitting online versus when sitting in a cardroom. I've found it to be very helpful to be friendly at live games, b/c people are less apt to pick up your tricks. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif Also, you'll often learn how someone plays by talking to them.. and they'll have no idea that you're making the mental note when they tell you that they'll raise UTG with any ace.

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

[Jason Pohl]

I agree completely with JoeyT. Two big differences due to the lack of speed at live play. First, you are far more apt to get bored. Second, your win rate is harder to duplicate if the game is just as bad as online.

Having said that, I never did find a live game at low limits ($6/12 or lower) that was harder than the average $2/4 or $3/6 on Paradise Poker.

--Jason

[FREDSKINS]

In my opinion for low limits online is a run away easier game for 2 big reasons. Rake and toke. Its even worse if there is a jackpot rake (which is $2 at my casino) But theoretically you break even or close to even on that rake in the long run on the jackpots. But anyways those tips add up and the extra rake add up. Slowness is a big factor too.

[bad beetz]

I am coming to realize that there is one huge and overlooked advantage to online poker. Hand histories.

I only play live, and taking notes just doesn't work. I have a horrible memory and screw up the details too much to post here. People like Homer who seem to only play online, get much more out of posting here because when they question the play of the last hand, they simply download it and post it's perfectly verbatim play by play here. It is my biggest regret about not playing online, I like every aspect of live play better, but I would kill for downloadable hand histories to be shot out of my chair or something at the card club

[ZManODS]

1) Online is harder to beat, so if youre doing well then definately try for the 3-6 live game.

2) I found my self fumbling cards, acting so nervous the first (and only time) i was at a cardroom. Youll find it a bit strange not clicking a mouse to bet or raise. The best advice i can give is to not play weakly. When i went i truly looked like a "tourist" (being my first time) and i played too weak, which i look back now and KNOW i was wrong.

[Homer]

Hire one of the railbirds to take notes for you. They're always begging for money; they might as well do something to earn it.

Kidding aside, maybe we should come up with some kind of shorthand notation for writing hands down. I think I'll come up with a notation system, sell a roladex with special cards that make it easy to take notes, sell it, and watch the pennies and nickels come rolling in...

-- Homer

[bad beetz]

funny, I already thought about creating the exact same product with exact same marketing conclusion.

I think I'll sell houses instead.

Seriously, though, you should get back to work. You must have SOMETHING to do besides surf two plus two. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[offTopic]

1. If I am doing well at a 1-2 online game how do you think I might fare at the 3-6 or 5-10 B&M games?

All things being equal, you should do well. I'm one of those that believes the level of competition online at low limits is much higher than in B & M cardrooms. However...

2. What differences do I need to keep in mind to ensure success in the B&M games?

...the game is s-l-o-w. If you're used to getting 75 hands/hr, you'll be doing well to get half that in a live game. Be prepared for less than half that.

- Tips. You're expected to toke the dealer when you win a pot (unless you steal the blinds, and if this is happening at 3-6 with any degree of regularity, you need to find a different game). Also, plan on tipping the cocktail waitress and the food service (if you go that route for food).

- Rake. The rake online is less than you will find in pretty much any B & M room. This can, and probably will, make a significant difference.

- Pots. One of the first things I noticed after venturing into the 4-8 at the Bellagio after playing something like 500 hrs online was I wasn't 100% sure what the size of the pot was. This takes some getting used to (and quite frankly, I don't always keep track, because I live in California and the pot is always big enough to draw at. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif )

- People. Lobbying. Smokers. Rude b*****ds. Card throwers. Live straddlers. Guy talking on cell phone. All these things lend to distractions that you wouldn't ordinarily run into online.

- Probably a million other things I've missed...good luck!

[J.A.Sucker]

Basically, the only way you'll know is to go out and try it. I'm sure you'll do fine, because, frankly, low limit games aren't hard to beat. This is the case either online or live. I've recently started playing online and let me tell you that there are many atrocious players. The bad play is simply different than it is in B&M rooms. I think there is more "hopeless aggression" in online games - I've been raised on the big streets so many times with big hands online that it's ridiculous. You also get more crying calls from morons who think that you're always making a move on them. Also. people never seem to realize how tight I play, which is fine, because I get lots of action even when I raise from the SB in a multiway pot, which doesn't happen in my normal B&M games. In a B&M game, if you get raised on the turn or river, you're usually in deep kimchee, but online this isn't always so. From my experience at Pokerstars, the games there are better than in the N. Cali casinos - at least at limits 5-10 thru 30-60, which is a terrific game at Stars.

As for the comments about being bored in a live game, I've actually found the opposite to be true. I'm much more inclined to just sit there and watch the game in a live game than online, where I'm always surfing espn or the like, or even playing a 2nd game. I've played higher stakes to alleviate this problem, but it has been an issue for me.

My final caveat isn't directly related to your post. You wrote, "I play and study everyday and have what I feel is a very solid game." This may not be the best attitude to have about poker, especially if you haven't ventured to higher limits, since the game is very different at that point. I still learn a lot from every session I play, and experience is the best teacher, including playing different games at different limits and in different enviroments (B&M vs casino, or between casinos, etc). Good luck dande, and as always, these are just my opinions, but I'm Just Another Sucker.

[Homer]

First you want me to go to work, now you want me to actually DO work?! You're a freakin slave driver!

[Plzr]

Right off I can tell you that anything 4-8 and lower will be unbeatable in a B & M game.Why? because the rake is too big in relation to the action.6-12 would be the minimun, if you have a high ev.
Another huge difference will be "Personality"! Yours & theirs and how well you can assimilate, respond, and control them. Online poker is an extremely "dry" activity. Your feedback from the other players is severly limited. Often times you are playing a purely "technical" game. That just won't work in a live game. You will NEED to be able to get a read on players and have multiple strategies for how you intend to prosecute your game!
Personally, for these reasons I find online games practically worthless. Poker is best with real bodies at the table and I wish you well escaping from the Poker Matrix. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[JoeyT]

"Right off I can tell you that anything 4-8 and lower will be unbeatable in a B & M game.Why? because the rake is too big in relation to the action.6-12 would be the minimun, if you have a high ev."

Ugh... not this discussion again. BUT, since dande may not have read one of the thousand of these threads... I'll do it anyway.

I disagree completely. I think 3/6 and 4/8 games, even with the high % rake, are very beatable, and many people can do it.

There. Hopefully we won't get into this again here.

Dande: Just know that some people think they're unbeatable, while some people think they are beatable (mainly b/c they beat them).

[dande1135]

Thank You for all the thoughtful responses.
I have built a decent bankroll online and I will take a shot in the near future.

Dande

[Rube]

There are worse players at B&M cardrooms, especially at lower limits, but the rake, tipping and longer wait between hands make it close. I think if you're doing well online, you'll do well in 3-6 and 5-10 B&M games.

[Plzr]

yeah , well I would not be in a position to know what amount of experience you are basing your opinion on but my suspicion is that you haven't spent alot of time at it.Could be you were thinking that I said that no one could be winners for any particular day.That's not what I meant to imply,I was referring to the long run.
Perhaps you have only played sporadically,or played on weekend trips to somewhere and managed to tame the Fri-sat night games!My sense of it is that you may just be passing along your impression of how you think you do.
To be honest, I have known a FEW individuals who were steady winners at LL HE. They had LOTS of experience and LOTS of discipline.These qualities gave them EV's of about 2-3 BB's/hr of which the rake consumed more than half!! They would have made LOTS more $$ if they moved up a notch or two but they had their reasons for not.
So I suppose I should be more specific when I allow that Casino LL HE is unbeatable.Here it is.... "Unless you have a serious TALENT and EXPERIENCE advantage over the table you will do no better than break even in the long run!!! Even at that you would still need to be able to apply those advantages over the long run.
Some places have spread exceptional 3/6 or 4/8 games over the years. In the late 90's, The High Desert Casino near Victorville,Ca comes to mind. Someone could beat that game easy enough because the action was mindless. Find a place like that and disregard anything I,ve said here. lol
It's not like I am just making this stuff up either, I have logged over 35,000 hours(+$550,000+) over a span of 27 years and I worked full time for ten of those.
It's probably just easier to say that if you are good enough to beat a 3/6,4/8 casino game day in and day out, then you are clearly playing too low! So anyone who claims to do so is kind of suspect to me.

[rkiray]

The problem is even bigger than you describe. You can also use hand histories to create databases of hands. There are programs you can buy to make this easy. This is a nice advantage for people who use it. Suddenly your memory becomes picture perfect.

Rick

[Plzr]

When I referred to the High Desert Casino earlier I meant the "late 80's and it is located in Adelanto , Ca" /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

[Ed I]

The 3-6 games at the High Desert were probably the best low limit games I've ever played in. I spent a couple of winters there.

[SunTzu68]

Although you should do fine in a B&M cardroom it also depends on where you play. Connecticut is much different than the Taj, which is much different than Vegas, and California is it's own world.

I'm also much less likely to get bored in a live game because I am paying so much attention to others play where online I have a good notebook (and I tend to play with the same players.) And, this may sound silly but pay attention to how you dress. I prefer to have a very neat appearance in a live cardroom usually wearing darker colors. It adds to the tight image I like to portray.

Good luck!

[David]

I have played in games in Mississippi, Nevada, Louisiana, and all over Texas and have yet to find a (limit) game 10/20 and under that is tougher than the 3/6 on Paradise.
If you can beat the 1/2 on Paradise then you can hold your own in just about any 3/6 game you can find anywhere in the world. The rake and tips can be brutal though. I also disagree with the poster who stated that online play will not help your live play. Bunk!