I sense a contradiction and maybe this should be in strategy.

[steamboatin]

Everyone says you need to play less than 20% of your hands but it is okay to call a raise with 5,7 suited in a loose game so if you always play in loose games how can you possibly hold your percentage of entering pots to less than 20%?

I haven't done the math and I plan to start rereading SSH tonight. So maybe I'll get some more insight but I would like some feedback.

Assuming you play in loose games, what is the correct percentage of hands you should see the flop with?

Poker Tracker says I have Voluntarily Put In the Pot VPIP of 29.63% and I am winning 2.29 BB/100 over 23,000 hands. There is no way I would have called a raise with 5,7 suited yet most people seem to think I am way to loose.

Question raised by responses from this thread.
Steamboatin cruises back to shallow water (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2806528&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

[Bremen]

The advice to calling with 75s applied to a blind. Cold calling would still be bad.

[Black Aces 518]

No one is saying "call a raise with 57s", they're saying "in the BB with 6 limpers and a button raise, you can profitably call". That's very specific.

No one thinks you should be calling raises with 57s regularly, it's suicide.

[stabn]

You still shouldn't be cold calling raises with 57s in loose games.

[shant]

People pretty much explained to you that when you're getting about 9-1 on a call and you have 57s, you should call. What's so hard to believe about this?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Tracker says I have Voluntarily Put In the Pot VPIP of 29.63%

[/ QUOTE ]

cough cough cough.

Someone please explain to Steam, he is a nice guy, I hate to see this happen to him.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[steamboatin]

If it is okay to call 1 1/2 small bets out of the BB with 5,7 suited then is it not okay to enter the pot with many other cards as long as you are getting 9-1. It is not unusual to see eight or nine players in a 3-6 game so is it okay to limp with 5,7 suited in late posistion? The math appears to be the same and if it is an unraised pot, you are less likely to be up against a big pair.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is okay to call 1 1/2 small bets out of the BB with 5,7 suited then is it not okay to enter the pot with many other cards as long as you are getting 9-1. It is not unusual to see eight or nine players in a 3-6 game so is it okay to limp with 5,7 suited in late posistion? The math appears to be the same and if it is an unraised pot, you are less likely to be up against a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, if I'm on the button and 6 players have limped in, I'm limping in also with suited connecters. This is fairly standard.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is okay to call 1 1/2 small bets out of the BB with 5,7 suited then is it not okay to enter the pot with many other cards as long as you are getting 9-1. It is not unusual to see eight or nine players in a 3-6 game so is it okay to limp with 5,7 suited in late posistion? The math appears to be the same and if it is an unraised pot, you are less likely to be up against a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an easy limp in late position against multiple other limpers.

There was never any consensus reached on this, but... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1957492)

The reason that his preflop call is fine also has everything to do with implied odds. He made a bad play on the turn, in my opinion, by checkraising and shutting out the field rather than betting out, but his preflop play is pretty standard.

Rob

[steamboatin]

That is a good thread but is there anyway you can be less than 20% preflop calling with hands like that? does 20% only apply to tight games?

[shant]

I'm curious as to why your VPIP is 29%. That is very high. My VPIP is around 18-19% and that's with these kind of limps in certain situations. I'm not sure how your VPIP got so high, so I don't know what sort of advice to give. Are you coldcalling a lot of raises?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a good thread but is there anyway you can be less than 20% preflop calling with hands like that? does 20% only apply to tight games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-read the starting hands section of SSHE, Ed's tight recommendation's should make you play somewhere around 19% of all hands. If you are playing 29% of all your hands in a 9 or ten person table, then you are spewing chips unnecessarily. Keep in mind that your profit comes from post flop play, not pre-flop... but this is an area where you obviously need work so start by fixing your preflop standards first.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[steamboatin]

At first I played way to many hands and it will take a while for Poker Tracker to average out and reflect the way I play now, but I have never understood why my numbers are so high when I never play hands like 5,7 suited. I used to play any suited connector with no gaps, any suited ace, etc. Now I throw away JTo and QTo in early posistion and am beginning to muck small pocket pairs in early posistion.

That is why I have difficulty understanding this whole bit about calling a raise with 5,7 suited in the big blind. I am breaking myself of calling a raise with small pocket pairs in early posistion. I find it very difficult to believe that you play less than 20% of your hands if you are calling raises in large pots with 5,7 suited.

either I am being dealt a higher proportion of good starting hands than anyone else on the planet or we are playing a much different game.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
At first I played way to many hands and it will take a while for Poker Tracker to average out and reflect the way I play now,

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be a good idea to filter for a date range more acurately reflecting your current play.

[steamboatin]

Can you do that?

[Bremen]

On the preferences tab

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that your profit comes from post flop play, not pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Profit comes from any correct decision, preflop or post flop. 30% VP$IP is a significant leak.

[steamboatin]

No, I am just that loose, since March, 18,372 hands, VPIP 29.76 win is 3.06 BB/100

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At first I played way to many hands and it will take a while for Poker Tracker to average out and reflect the way I play now,

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be a good idea to filter for a date range more acurately reflecting your current play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or if you're playing signficantly differently than you have in the past, it might not be a bad idea to clear out your database and start fresh. I've done it before and my game improved.

[steamboatin]

I must be running good on starting hands. If I had as big a leak as you all seem to think, How am I winning 3.06 BB/100 since March? Is that just running good also? I am a little over 2 BB/100 since I bought Poker Tracker (24,000 hads ago).

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
If it is okay to call 1 1/2 small bets out of the BB with 5,7 suited then is it not okay to enter the pot with many other cards as long as you are getting 9-1. It is not unusual to see eight or nine players in a 3-6 game so is it okay to limp with 5,7 suited in late posistion? The math appears to be the same and if it is an unraised pot, you are less likely to be up against a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to compare your odds with your estimated pot equity. Paying 1 small bet for a 9 small bet pot from the big blind vs 4 opponents is not the same as paying 1 small bet from the button after the entire table limps in. Your pot odds are the same but your hand is much less likely to win.

It's impossible to say where you're playing too loose with only a VP$IP number. It may commonly be caused by playing too many weak hands from early position (small pairs, suited connectors, even big cards like KJ which may or may not be dominated). Another common mistake is playing too loose against a raise. Unless you're in the blinds, you need to fold everything except big cards that aren't at great risk of being dominated. Pretty much everything except the very best hands, which of course should be 3-bet. Does any of this sound like you?

By the way, are you going to be at Caesar's IN this weekend? This is my last weekend in the area and I was thinking about maybe going up on Saturday. I've only been there once and it looked like a nice place so I wanted to check it out again before I leave. I might be too busy to go, so no plans yet, but I've been thinking about it.

[d10]

That's possible, but unlikely. Your VP$IP stat will converge much more quickly than your winrate. At 18,000 hands, your winrate could be off by a few BB/100, but your VP$IP will be off by no more than 2-3% (conservative estimate, it's likely closer). I'm almost certain you're losing money somewhere preflop. We are talking about 10 handed games here, right? 29% is just way too high over 18,000 hands to be getting lucky.

[MicroBob]

First - this topic comes up in the strategy forums ALL the time. Just another typical, "I swear I am following the guidelines in SSHE or ITH....but everyone here thinks that VP-30 is too high!!"

Yes - VP-30 is DEFINITELY too high in your case (some players like Astro and others do succeed with a VP this high but we'll just assume you are going for the 'typical' 2+2'ers TAG play which should be VP less than 20).

There is no debate about this.


Your percentage of hands that you cold-call with pre-flop should probably be 0.5% or less. If you are cold-calling a raise too much then that is a significant leak. Much of the time when you are raise you could be in either re-raise or fold mode (especially if it's not multi-way).


Hands you might be playing that might make your VP high:
KJo or KTo from EP (terrible).
Limping in with KTo in MP after an EP limp or raise (not good).
A9o or lower in EP.
Calling a field of limpers with Axo in LP.


Just some thoughts.

I haven't gone back and read the previous thread yet....but there is no doubt that calling a raise from the BB with an EP raise and several cold-callers is obviously getting good implied odds there.
And, yes, there's no doubt that I'm limping in from the button with 64s against a field of limpers. In fact, I'm all excited about the chance to limp here (haven't been raised out of it and have a big pot) because of the potential of getting paid off handsomely if/when I do hit my hand.


Steam - you're on the right track regarding your game. You're looking at your VP numbers and realize it's too high.
You are wondering about specific hands and pre-flop guideline and are trying to figure out where you're going astray.

If you hang out in the general forum and micro and SS forums you will continue to figure this stuff out.


I agree that getting that VP down is priority 1.
Curious what your raise-preflop percentage is because I'm guessing it's too low (5 or lower would be too low imo).

[Evan]

What game are you playing online?

You seem to be trying really hard to play well but a lot of what you've written on this site implies that you are not there yet. I've never seen you post in a strat forum, why don't you do that?

Also, a VPIP of 30 is just ridiculous--end of story.

[Nalapoint1]

If it ok to call 57s from BB, isnt it ok yo call 57o under same conditions?Same with 46. Arent you guys putting too much into the suited aspect? If you do hit your flush isnt it-ev because with 6-8 people in pot a 6 or 7 high flush wont hold up often enough. This is just my observation as it relates to online play.

[steamboatin]

I'll probably go today, Friday, I rarely go on Saturday unless I just stop in to sweat one of the tourneys or visit with a "SUP BRO". Nephew's birthday is Saturday so chances are slim that I will show.

[steamboatin]

Since March-05

Total hands 18.372
VPIP 29.76
VPIPSB 70.03
FOLDED SB to steal 53.61
Folded BB to sreal 30.61
Steal Attempts 18.84
Won WSF 32.99
amount won $693.30
BB/100 + 3.06
Went to SD 36.96
Won at SD 51.79
Preflop raise 7.63
total rake 1,100.55

These are my numbers since March of this year.

[steamboatin]

Mostly Crypto's $1-2 and 1-2 GBP

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
If it ok to call 57s from BB, isnt it ok yo call 57o under same conditions?Same with 46.

[/ QUOTE ]

unsuited? no.

[ QUOTE ]
Arent you guys putting too much into the suited aspect?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Not only does it give you a second way to win (making the flush), being suited allows you to continue on in the hand and win other ways. Examples: you flop a 4-flush, and hit runner runner 7's. Or you flop a backdoor straight and backdoor flush draw and are able to call one flop bet and then go runner-runner for the win. It's not just the flushes in and of themselves that make these hands playable, it's the extra cards and draws you get.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do hit your flush isnt it-ev because with 6-8 people in pot a 6 or 7 high flush wont hold up often enough. This is just my observation as it relates to online play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just so very very very wrong. I will give you $100 if you show me your unfiltered PT database with 100,000+ hands that show that you are losing money overall with these hands (7-high or lower, suited) vs other flushes. Here are the rules:

1 - Your hand must be suited (It's not acceptable to include hands like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif with 4 spades on the board.)
2 - We're only going to count the times where you lose flush-over-flush. (If you lose to a full house or better, it doesn't matter how big or small your flush is).

[MegumiAmano]

[ QUOTE ]
VPIP 29.76

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just a newbie, but that may actually be helpful in this situation. Because I'm still learning, I've been strictly using the SSH starting hands (mostly from the tight chart). My VPIP for the last 2000 hands is 16%. I know that's a small sample, but I don't think it's going to nearly double in size as I get more hands in.

I honestly think that you misunderstood something in SSH, or WLLH, or whatever book you used to learn the pre-flop game.

[d10]

Your numbers from the blinds (especially small blind) are extremely high. I've heard it said that you should play similarly in the small blind as you do on the button. This isn't exactly true, since in one case you have great position but in the other case you're getting great odds. The types of hands you want to play are different but the overall VP$IP% shouldn't be too far apart. 70% is extremely loose.

[steamboatin]

This is one of the things that completely confuse me. This entire thread has said it is okay to call 1.5 small bets from the big blind with 7,5 suited. I normally play at loose tables so there are usually multiway pots and I rarely call a raise from the SB and I am 99.9% sure I am not defending my blind with anything less than 5,7 suited. i am absolutly certain I am not calling raises from the small blind with les than 5,7 suited.

[Rasputin]

[ QUOTE ]
VPIPSB 70.03

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems outrageously high to me.

[ QUOTE ]
This entire thread has said it is okay to call 1.5 small bets from the big blind with 7,5 suited. I normally play at loose tables so there are usually multiway pots and I rarely call a raise from the SB and I am 99.9% sure I am not defending my blind with anything less than 5,7 suited. i am absolutly certain I am not calling raises from the small blind with les than 5,7 suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're only saying to play the 5,7 suited in that situation because the entire table was in the pot.

Last time I was at Foxwoods I won a huge (relatively speaking) pot with 89o. Normally I wouldn't even consider playing 89o but I was on the button and the entire table called around to me. It's the same kind of thing. When everyone is in the pot preflop, you have the pot odds to play all sorts of things you would never play otherwise.

[GreywolfNYC]

"I used to play any suited connector with no gaps, any suited ace, etc. Now I throw away JTo and QTo in early posistion and am beginning to muck small pocket pairs in early posistion. ...
I am breaking myself of calling a raise with small pocket pairs in early posistion."

Steam,
I get the sense from your post that you're still playing way too many hands and maybe you're still not playing position as well as you could be.
JTo, QTo, QJo, KJo, KTo and the like are, imo, unplayable from EP and I don't care how loose/idiotic the game you're in is.
As for calling raises with small pocket pairs you have identified a significant leak in your game and I guess you're taking steps to correct it. You need to be sure that at least 4 other opponents are going see the flop before you can call a raise with these hands. If you've been routinely calling raises when you're next to act after the raiser you need to stop doing this. On the other hand, if you're in late position and it has been passed to you in a very tight, aggressive game then there are times when reraising with a small pocket pair from late position can be effective. This is, of course, very situational and should be done very sparingly.

[steamboatin]

The same has to apply to the small blind, when it is a family or near family pot. What do you fold in the small blind for 1/2 of a small bet with 7+ limpers?

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the things that completely confuse me. This entire thread has said it is okay to call 1.5 small bets from the big blind with 7,5 suited. I normally play at loose tables so there are usually multiway pots and I rarely call a raise from the SB and I am 99.9% sure I am not defending my blind with anything less than 5,7 suited. i am absolutly certain I am not calling raises from the small blind with les than 5,7 suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let’s start fixing it...


It’s ok to call a raise from the big blind with 75s when the pot is multiway because 75s plays best in multiway pots. Why? Because even though it’s a horrible hand, but those few times when you do make that miracle draw it is a profitable scenario in the long run. In the short run, you will lose with this hand quite often, but hopefully lose the minimum.

It the case of your hand specifically it was a killed pot, which means it is harder to justify... thats where experiance rather than hand charts come into play. As Ed Miller previously pointed out since the hand was multiway and the pot was very large, it is marginally a good play to call for the extra 1/2 bet required in a kill pot after it has been raised.

Now since you rarely cold-call a raise from the small blind yet your small blind VPIP is very high, then we can only assume you complete most all small blind hands as long as it hasn't been raised. That my friend is a bad strategy, if that’s what you are doing then stop immediately.

On the bright side, there are a lot of very good players here who seem to want to help you... it sounds like you are very lucky. A while ago I advised you spend a lot of time in the Small Stakes forum rather than the more social forums like B&M, I hope you take my (our) advice because its only going to make you a better player, obviously we all care!

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
The same has to apply to the small blind, when it is a family or near family pot. What do you fold in the small blind for 1/2 of a small bet with 7+ limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

With that many limpers at your level online from the small blind play nearly any suited cards, And two Broadway cards. Offsuited connectors are garbage. There is a great chapter in SSHE about this, re-read it to back up the knowledge.

Do you know what is best to raise from the small blind if everyone has limped to you?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Nalapoint1]

I usually play $15/30 and at these stakes a 7 high flush will not win under your rules most of the time online.

In B&M I dont play enough to know

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not unusual to see eight or nine players in a 3-6 game so is it okay to limp with 5,7 suited in late posistion? The math appears to be the same and if it is an unraised pot, you are less likely to be up against a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't playing 57s in hopes of winning by making a pair of fives. You are hoping to make a big hand like two pair, trips, a straight or a flush. So having the big pair in there with you is not so bad. If you make your hand, you will usually beat him and he will pay you off the whole while, often betting and raising to help you extract the maximum from the field or knock people out and protect your hand. You are playing this hand for implied odds and the guy with the good starting hand is the one who is helping you get those implied odds.

[steamboatin]

Never doubt for a moment how much I appreciate the help I receive from all the members and I try hard to help others when I can.

This is really a amazing group of people. Every "SUP BRO" that I have met in person has been super nice.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
VPIPSB 70.03

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Folded BB to sreal 30.61

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have my personal stats in front of me, but it looks to me like you are chasing good money after bad in your blinds too often. As was said before, if you fold your SB to raises as often as you claim, then you are completing almost every time in an unraised pot. Yikes!

As for the BB- Defending 70% of the time to a steal seems like far too much to me. If someone is stealing, there is a tiny pot out there; you can't be getting the right odds to call with your marginal and bad hands there.

Anyone else agree? Disagree?

[Siegmund]

Just a couple random thoughts to add to what's already been said.

1) I think at least a few of the posters in the original thread failed to notice it was a kill pot, i.e., the big blind was only getting a 25% discount instead of half price for calling the raise. (The range of draw-building hands that can be played 7-handed may still be fairly large.)

2) I also think a great many posters fall into the trap of believing all 9:1 pot odds situations are created equal. Completing the small blind in an unraised pot and completing the big blind in a raised pot are two completely different animals. A hand that wins more than its fair share is of course playable in both situations. A hand that relies on implied odds has been destroyed by the preflop raise.

Suppose (I am making up numbers here, not talking specifically about 75s) that you are offered 9:1 pot odds on a hand that will be a winner 1/12th of the time.

In an unraised pot, you are losing one bet eleven times. On the twelfth time, you must win 11 bets instead of 9 to break even. If the bet size doubles on the turn, one person paying you off on the end is good enough to break even, two callers or one person trapped in a checkraise is enough to make money.

In a raised pot, you've lost 2 bets 11 times, so the one time you win, you must win 22 instead of 18. In a limit game, this is a disaster. If you get one extra big bet in on the end, you are still losing money. If you get two you're only breaking even. You can't win unless you are phenomenally lucky, getting paid off by a capping maniac on the end (but making your hand early before the capping maniac charges you double or triple to draw to it.)

On the other hand, when you complete the small blind, you're losing *half* a small bet eleven times, and only have to win 5.5 instead of 4.5 when you hit, which is easy - a single caller on the expensive street if you make your hand means you are money ahead. This is why people say "any two suited plays from the small blind" and are right -- but sometimes they say the same thing about the big blind in a raised pot and are wrong.

Now, pokerstove says 75s is still something like 13 or 14% to win vs. a raiser, a couple of sensible limpers, and a couple people playing anything. So maybe it really is good enough to call without much help from implied odds. But I wouldn't fault anyone who felt like folding it especially if he was worried about his postflop play.

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
I must be running good on starting hands. If I had as big a leak as you all seem to think, How am I winning 3.06 BB/100 since March? Is that just running good also? I am a little over 2 BB/100 since I bought Poker Tracker (24,000 hads ago).

[/ QUOTE ]

Must be the shirt.

[steamboatin]

I got the shirt in March for my birthday.