Am I correct to slow-play here?

[Cased Heel]

25 NL cash 6-max Party.

I have AK clubs, in a 4-way pot (I think I minraised preflop and got 3 callers). Anyway, flop comes something like K 8 5 with two clubs. I've hit TPTK and a re-draw to the nut flush. I'm second to act. First position bets small, my first instinct is to raise and isolate, but then I think it's safe to go for the 2 overcalls (sorry to use a limit term in here) here?

Well I did, I just called his small bet and the other two called as well. I think I was correct in slowplaying here, which is weird, b/c I think slowplaying is almost always going to bite you in the end, but in this case I think it's correct for me to try to re-draw to the nut flush on an unpaired board. (Hoping someone made a lower flush as well).

The result was that my high pair held up as I saw the showdown with 1 opponent. No flush, but what are your thoughts?

[nathan_hicks]

This may be just me, but I never slow play TPTK. The hand is not all that strong against three players. I raise and try to get heads up in this situation. TPTK in a 4 way pot rarely holds up, but heads up its a pretty strong hand. By calling you give the people in the pot the chance to see the turn card for cheap possibly making two pair for one of them.

I guess it depends. Are you willing to give up TPTK on the turn if you dont hit the redraw and face a big bet? I will always lead out and bet though.

Its good to see you won the hand though.

[xorbie]

The main problem here is that you don't charge flushes enough. They will call 1/2 potsize bets, so feel free to raise. A king will also call.

[Cased Heel]

As someone stated, I'll only make my flush about 35% of the time, however, I think the rest of the time my TPTK should play quite well in this pot. Especially if I spike an Ace, I'll probably get paid off by a weaker ace, or someone with two pairs Aces up but are worse than mine.

Also, when I DO make my flush, the implied odds may or may not be fairly large. As with 3 other opponents in the hand it's not totally illogical to think that someone else does not have club-club here. I think you're right in that a raise here will get a call from a king, but that's about it. The 8 and 5 aren't going to pay me off much here...

I basically am not very comfortable here with TPTK against 3 opponents, but I feel if we keep the pot small, and I improve, then I'm sitting quite pretty against someone who may hold K8. I basically turned the hand into a limit hand where I think my EV^ if I wait for the flush to hit. TPTK isn't the best hand to play in a 4-way pot. It's difficult to get away from. The nut flush is not /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[xorbie]

You really don't want people with a 5 or 8 staying around. If they spike two pair, you're in trouble.

[nathan_hicks]

I did not see that there were two clubs on board. You are not going for a redraw to the nuts, you are on a draw to the nuts. I still bet it though. You want the people drawing to a smaller flush to pay for their draw. If you hit it on the turn after you bet the flop you can check hoping they made the flush or they might bluff the flush thinking the card scared you.

[PoBoy321]

[ QUOTE ]
You really don't want people with a 5 or 8 staying around. If they spike two pair, you're in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain to me again why you want players with worse hands to fold when they have incorrect odds?

[xorbie]

Because they are calling a small bet with two already in the pot, and therefore have correct odds?

[nathan_hicks]

I agree. If somone is mini betting you are getting odds to call anything.

[nietzreznor]

[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me again why you want players with worse hands to fold when they have incorrect odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what was meant was that by not raising here, you would be giving mid/bottom pair hands a good price to stick around. Raising, on the other hand, would either fold them out, or let them call when they are making a mistake (so obviously we would want them to call if we were to raise, as you suggest).

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Explain to me again why you want players with worse hands to fold when they have incorrect odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what was meant was that by not raising here, you would be giving mid/bottom pair hands a good price to stick around. Raising, on the other hand, would either fold them out, or let them call when they are making a mistake (so obviously we would want them to call if we were to raise, as you suggest).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah my fault for the confusion. I obviously want 56 to call if I raise here to 1/2 pot.

[fimbulwinter]

right logic, wrong answer.

consider the following two scenarios:

TT on T/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif flop

and

AK on A/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif flop

which one should you slowplay? why?

getting the answer to the above will show you why you shouldn't have slowplayed here.

fim

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
right logic, wrong answer.

consider the following two scenarios:

TT on T/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif flop

and

AK on A/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif flop

which one should you slowplay? why?

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel like a donkey for saying this, but I want to slowplay both. By slowplay in hand 1 I mean betting little enough that I think oponent will call with a pure straight or flush draw. That can range from quite small to going all in of course. I'm not checking though, since board making three flushes and -straights will kill my action from a lot of hands, and since I want to charge overpairs (don't need to charge them much to make a call incorrect, but need to charge them some still.) And because checking the flop on a paired board and then giving crazy action on a flush turn looks looks too much like a boat. Oh well, it really depends on the situation if I want to play this hand slow or fast. I guess most of the time, I want to get money in while the overpairs and 8x's don't see a three-flush or three-straight on the board, and just hope the drawers come along for the ride as well.

You only get action from handsyou beat or split with if you fast play hand 2 (and maybe AQ-AJ if villains are the right kind), and oponents are drawing to 3 outs at most. Slowplay/pot control looks good.

OP: Why did you min-raise preflop?

[ThePortuguee]

Don't. Minraise.

If you're going to minraise, don't do it preflop.

If you're going to minraise preflop, don't do it with AK. This all assumes you like money... if you don't like money, by all means, continue with your play so far.

Raise to at least 4BB at those stakes preflop with that hand.

In this hand, you've hit the flop extremely hard. Raise. You have three people in the pot with you, one of whom has already bet, you're probably going to get action, and at those stakes most players will call almost pot sized bets with flush draws.

The reason you're doing this is because lots of hands you are absolutely murdering are going to call here, and this way you're making lame two pair draws pay a premium to suck out on you. Most importantly though, Kings are paying you off, some PPs will pay you off, straight draws pay you off, and in the rare circumstances you're against a set, you're still better than 30% to pull off the suck out, anyway. AND, when that flush card does come, the fish with the flush draw behind you is going to be crying for days when he just siphons off his stack into yours. That feeling, that one of just owning someone so badly that he's left desperately sobbing in the corner, is one of the best parts of playing poker.

[srm80]

ram and jam that pot on the flop dude, raise the mini-bet to about 1.50 or so on the flop, a lot of hands pay you off. You don't want "customers" for your TPTK hand with a redraw. a lot of hands pay you off, and you want get flush draws pot committed so if they hit the smaller flush they are pushing their chips to you. I would not want 3 other opponents to see the turn card with me.

[Cased Heel]

[ QUOTE ]


OP: Why did you min-raise preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't quite recall what I raised PF. it was probably a minraise, because I tend to play AK suited like I'm at a limit table, I like to go for a large family pot that may pay me off if I hit my flush. This is wrong though, and I really should raise at least 2.5XBB PF and play it for high hand strength. But anyway...if it folds to me in the CO, I'll always minraise AK.

[Cased Heel]

[ QUOTE ]
AND, when that flush card does come, the fish with the flush draw behind you is going to be crying for days when he just siphons off his stack into yours. That feeling, that one of just owning someone so badly that he's left desperately sobbing in the corner, is one of the best parts of playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

D@mn...

About the PF 4xbb raise, I don't really like it b/c when I raise big like that I always seem to get jokers who've bought in short and like to push with 33 in their hand here. It depends on the texture of the table of course. But at such a weak level, I don't tend to go for winning races to double up. No need to put yourself in those spots.

[amoeba]

depends on number of callers.

if its HU or maybe 3 way, then I might play it like you did, but anymore and I definitely raise.