Did I get outplayed?

[Mikey]

Playing 5-10 Hold'em at TAJ

2 fold to a person (young man)-age between 19-22 who raises, 2 people after him drop, after careful observation of this opponnent I noticed earlier he raised with A7o, I look down and see AQo before he even raised, I say to myself, "hey I was going to do that."


Well I 3 bet him, since I figure odds are he could have a smaller Ace than mine especially when he raised with A7o in early-mid position in the prior orbit.

I get my wish and its heads up. The flop falls quite nicely.

A J 4 rainbow.

I'm thinking "nice, this will be an easy score."

-He bets, i raise, He reraise, I reraise, he reraises, I muck.

He flahsed me his hand and I said "good job."
I smiled genuinely and said to myself, "young man let's move onto the next hand."

[Billy LTL]

Maybe my thinking is fuzzy here but I see you getting about 16-1 to call that last flop bet. You've got AQJ to his JJx (I guess). Maybe even his AA.

If a K or a 10 show up on the turn you're only about a 5-1 dog to hit an over 9-1 pot on the river. If they don't show up and you're still convinced you're drawing dead you can fold to his turn bet. Or his river bet. If you trust your read.

[Dynasty]

This is the second hand you posted in which you've gone to war on the flop with one-pair hands. What are you trying to accomplish?

[Mikey]

This post didn't get the hits I wanted it to get I basically posted it up here to see, if I could warp 2+2 posters thinking with the title of the post "Did I get outplayed?" Well I didn't. Why did I start a raising war on this flop you ask?

1) I raised on the flop to gain info to see if I had the best hand to to get money in the pot with the best hand.

2) I wanted to play this hand as inexpensively as possible.

3) I wanted to tie him into the hand with maybe a crappy Ace.

He showed me AJo for two pair and my initial read on his crappy Ace was correct although the flop didn't seem to care.

- I think I played it optimally.
Comments?

[Dynasty]

I think I played it optimally.

There's a much better and simpler way of putting 2.5 big bets into the pot post-flop to find out if your hand is good.

[Clarkmeister]

"Comments?"

This is exactly the kind of "spectacular flop laydown" I was talking about in the other thread. You would frequently go 3-4 bets on the flop and fold.

You folded a 3 outer getting....what....16-1? I fail to see how that is optimal.

[Mikey]

yeah i'm 16-1 if he has two pair, what if he had a set of Jacks, then where am I.

[Clarkmeister]

What if he has top and bottom rather than top two, then where are you? Now you folded a 6 outer, and on the river it could be up to a 9 outer.

What if he has AK

What if he has the same hand?

There are more streets than just the flop.

[Mikey]

You suggest that calling to see the turn would be correct I don't disagree with you here, what if I don't have much improvement on the turn, should I fold to a turn bet or call to see the river?

[Clarkmeister]

I play the hand in this spot in a variety of ways. But currently, my most "typical" way is call the flop, call the turn, call/raise the river.

Of course, you must raise the flop occassionally to lend weight to the times when you have diddly squat. In that case, i would have called his 3 bet, called the turn and called the river.

I can't fathom 4 betting in this spot. If I somehow decided to 4 bet and got 5 bet, I'd likely fold the turn if I didn't improve since presumably I 4 bet because I read him in such a manner that a 5 bet from him absolutely meant I was beat.

[Dynasty]

What hands will your opponent play this way?

[Mikey]

Do you think I played this hand too agressively? What errors do you see, other than the easy call I probably should be making on the flop to see the turn.

[Clarkmeister]

I think you have to be damn sure of your read, and rarely is anyone that sure, and given your description of him, I don't know how you can be so sure unless you saw him stop raising on a previous hand with "only" top pair top kicker. These are very opponent specific situations, but generally I think you fold the turn in this spot if he bets again.

I'm not questioning your read that you are beat. I'm questioning your folds in these spots when the pot is laying you the correct price to continue for one more card.

[Mikey]

well from what I can determine, he looked very young, so it doesn't seem natural that someone would be overplaying just naked aces that way. Usually I see two pair or better in this spot.

- I have no knowledge of the opponennet except that he overvalued his Ax hands preflop.

[Mikey]

It's just that when you have someone come back over the top of you almost unhesitantly they can't possibly just have one pair, especially at a 5-10 game because usually when I make my 2nd reraise and they only have top pair they (lock up) and get into a passive mode but since he reraised again, he had to have AQ beat.

[Mikey]

what is the better and simpler way of putting 2.5 big bets into the pot post-flop to find out if my hand is good?

Should I
call his flop bet and raise his turn bet?

If this is your solution.....
Why is this better....?

I think the earlier way will tie him onto to the hand better if he is behind and not only that, it will give me the information I need to know about his hand which i got.

Maybe when he bet I should have raised, when he reraised, i should have mucked, I think that would be playing the hand optimally.

[spiral]

There's a place in the Lowball chapter of Super/System where it says:

Never put in so much action that you must break a hand head-up.

Many players have an 8-4 pat and they keep raising another player almost forever. Then the opponent raps pat and they think, "Well, this Eight isn't any good - I think I'll draw one."

Joey Hawthorne says "They found out they had to break the Eight, but it just wasn't worth finding out. They should have stopped a lot earlier and died with the hand."

[JTG51]

what is the better and simpler way of putting 2.5 big bets into the pot post-flop to find out if my hand is good?

Call the flop, call the turn, call the river = 2.5 BBs. You'll know for sure if your hand is good.

I made a reference to this kind of situation in your AK post from a few days ago. When you are up against a preflop raiser and flop a pair of aces with less than a K kicker, there's nothing wrong with calling him. You are in a way ahead or way behind situation. In general, it's not good to be over aggressive in those situations.

My default play in the kind of hand you describe is to call if he bets, and bet if he checks.

[bad beetz]

In my last trip to vegas, I made a couple of raise the flop and fold to a three bet moves, pretty soon I was getting three bet with nothings all over the place.

I think a loose call is in order in a lot of these situations to keep that from happening. However, in this situation, it's not a loose call.

[bad beetz]

I got carded for an R-rated movie last week.

If I noticed you make a laydown on the flop to a five bet, I would play naked aces this way. In fact, I'd probably play pocket threes this way.

[bernie]

"I have no knowledge of the opponennet except that he overvalued his Ax hands preflop."

then you werent watching him very close when he played post flop. you may have wasted some bets here that couldve been saved by closer observation on previous hands

many players, young or old, will overplay naked aces on a board like this...and many players wont....ive found age doesnt really matter...

HU..there's no reason to get that aggressive on the flop. unless its a tricky player who might be trying to overrun you...which i dont get that from your description of the player. i like to learn about a player cheaply if i can. IF im unsure of how he plays...

what did you put him on when he reraises you? if youre not sure, there's no reason to raise again here. this is where the key read is....the hand should be more defined by this time...your not going to learn much more by raising one more time that you should know here....not much difference between a guys 3 bet standard and his 5 bet standard.. when HU

im not saying to auto call here if you have a great read on him...one reason i dont agree with it is why make reads if youre not going to use them. some players play predictably regardless of how many players are in the pot. but if your unsure, it's time to find out...'cheaply'

there's no shame in calling it out...

b

[bernie]

wouldnt they do this unhesitantly when coming back over top of your first raise? after they were the initial bettor?

b

[bernie]

"but generally I think you fold the turn in this spot if he bets again."

i think if you see the turn, youre seeing the river for improvement....as you stated earlier...once you see the turn, you could have 9 outs. he still could be betting top and bottom pair.

but i agree it is a very opponent specific situation...and knowledge of a players post flop play is very key...

but if i wasnt sure, and i can control how much i want to pay for the info that i can use on later hands, since it's HU, id call it down. and make mental notes about his play...

b

[Mikey]

I think the best strategy here that has been pointed out is to call down, unless I can make a judgement fold.

I appreciate the responses I've gotten from everyone here and I'm very glad that I posted this hand.


Thanks everyone for the input.
This already has improved my game.