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Somekid
07-07-2005, 04:07 PM
The button is a lag that I've seen raise the flop with draws (including gutshots w/ one overcard). When raised should I 3-bet or stop and go? I figured calling the flop was right followed by a turn lead? If anybody has a better line or advice on the rest of the hand it would be appreciated.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

McGahee
07-07-2005, 04:23 PM
I'd go the weak-tight route and check/call the turn.
Don't be paranoid about giving up the free card on the turn. First of all, you could use the free card without a pair OOP against 2 opponents. Secondly, it's unlikely that a LAG will take the free card anyway. Thirdly, you're going to get raised by some thinking LAGS, as that's a pretty transparent donkbet; and he's not going to fold a flush/straight draw. Why'd you bet the river?

@bsolute_luck
07-07-2005, 04:27 PM
i'd probably check the river and call a bet from CO, but not UTG.

irishpint
07-07-2005, 04:42 PM
would a flop c/r be out of line? the flop likely hit someone with either a J or 9 or the flush draw. if it gets checked through, that's in our favor, isn't it, since we have ace high? and if CO bets we raise, knock out UTG and scare him into thinking we have AA/KK and get free turn cards and river.

i just dont like how this went down with being raised on the flop and then leading the turn and river with nada.

McGahee
07-07-2005, 04:50 PM
How are you getting free cards OOP?

deception5
07-07-2005, 04:51 PM
Interesting hand.

I like the idea of a flop check/raise if you're pretty sure the co will bet. If it got checked through I would definitely bet the turn and if UTG called 2 cold on the flop I would slow down.

gharp
07-07-2005, 04:55 PM
I'm not sure why we're leading the turn here. Are you representing a 3 after your preflop raise?!

I'd be most likely to check/call the turn (good odds) then check/fold the river UI (esp with UTG behind us).

irishpint
07-07-2005, 05:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How are you getting free cards OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously we cannot be 100% sure of getting a free card. but if we c/r and check the turn, how often are we getting bet into, in your opinion? if we c/r the flop and get a free turn card 1/3 times we're saving bets.

kapw7
07-07-2005, 05:01 PM
Check-raising the flop as suggested by deception looks like the best play. Check-fold the turn

newfant
07-07-2005, 05:02 PM
It's tough to play AK out of position when you miss the flop. Here's my analysis:

preflop raise = good
flop bet = good
call of check raise on the flop = I could fold here, but I would probably call to see the turn card. You have back door flush and overs.
turn = check, if CO or UTG bet I fold. If both check, then I put CO on a draw (hearts or QT or T8) and UTG on a donkey hand.
River = bad card if CO was on the straight draw. I would check and call one bet cold but not two.

I think you can find better spots to get your chips in in these low limit games than AK unimproved out of position. Slow down with the aggression on later streets if you're out of position, have only AK, and don't improve.

deception5
07-07-2005, 05:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
obviously we cannot be 100% sure of getting a free card. but if we c/r and check the turn, how often are we getting bet into, in your opinion? if we c/r the flop and get a free turn card 1/3 times we're saving bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position this doesn't work nearly often enough. If you're getting a free card on the turn here, the other guy needs it more than you.

deception5
07-07-2005, 05:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
call of check raise on the flop = I could fold here, but I would probably call to see the turn card. You have back door flush and overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree on this - but it was just a raise not a check/raise. Given that this player is laggy and would raise a draw here, I would consider 3-betting and leading the turn.

irishpint
07-07-2005, 05:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
obviously we cannot be 100% sure of getting a free card. but if we c/r and check the turn, how often are we getting bet into, in your opinion? if we c/r the flop and get a free turn card 1/3 times we're saving bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position this doesn't work nearly often enough. If you're getting a free card on the turn here, the other guy needs it more than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

not always, often times he'll have middle or bottom pair, which right now beats us.

kapw7
07-07-2005, 05:21 PM
Please read carefully this link (http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/jason-pohl17.htm) It changed my perception on overcards.

newfant
07-07-2005, 05:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

call of check raise on the flop = I could fold here, but I would probably call to see the turn card. You have back door flush and overs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree on this - but it was just a raise not a check/raise. Given that this player is laggy and would raise a draw here, I would consider 3-betting and leading the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure enough, that was a raise and not a checkraise. Never mind then. My analysis is all [censored] up.

newfant
07-07-2005, 05:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please read carefully this link It changed my perception on overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good link. I like the math in it and need to learn how to do that sort of stuff. However, I'm not sure it is applicable to 2/4 and below because of this sentence: "If we presume that our opposition called preflop with at least a reasonable hand..."

Very often, our opponents in these low limits will be calling with crap. That type of analysis will still work for our level, but the assumptions would need to be changed to determine if calling with overcards is +EV down here.

deception5
07-07-2005, 05:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
not always, often times he'll have middle or bottom pair, which right now beats us.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on how passive your opponent is, but most reasonable players will not give you a free card with a made hand, even middle pair, when you check the turn.

Rev. Good Will
07-07-2005, 07:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please read carefully this link (http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/jason-pohl17.htm) It changed my perception on overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, insta-bookmarked