Please rip my line

[rydazzle]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t775)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t775)
Button (t788)
Hero (t740)
BB (t735)
UTG (t912)
UTG+1 (t790)
UTG+2 (t820)
MP1 (t890)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Button calls t15, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t30</font>, BB calls t30, UTG calls t30, Button folds.

Probe bet...im pretty much done w/ hand now

Turn: (t150) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

nice card, I check to make it look like my probe attempt failed, want to CR even though there's a flush draw and I risk free card

Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t50</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t250</font>, BB calls t200.

nice, get the CR in and give BB about 2.5:1 to kill a possible flush draw

River: (t650) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

uh-oh

Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t440 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t440.

those pot odds are too good...the bet/CR call by BB on 4th make me think I must call...think he paired an A-x. Results are in white below.

<font color="red">Please rip my line</font>




Final Pot: t1530

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ad 6h (two pair, aces and sixes).
BB has 2c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: BB wins t1530. </font>

[citanul]

if you think you are ahead i like betting the turn better.

if you bet and he raises, you get the 3rd bet all in. which is better than checkraising and not having it all in while you're a favorite. note that if you are paying him off with your whole stack whenever he hits his flush he's almost almost almost or something correct to call the checkraise on the turn.

citanul

[adanthar]

He hit his ace a huuuuge portion of the time here. Given you are CR'ing, push now, he won't fold.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
He hit his ace a huuuuge portion of the time here. Given you are CR'ing, push now, he won't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, that's the other half of the reasoning i er, decided to leave out to have the OP think through for himself. the whole game of poker is not all about trying to make people fold when you're behind and fold when you're ahead. sometimes you really do want to have them continue to handing you chips, and your goal is to get the most chips you can. this process depends on your hand, what you think your opponent's hand is, and what you think your opponent is capable of.

this is a huge aspect of post flop play that many people just sort of disregard around here, thinking "you have the best hand, put him to the test" far too often. maybe i'll start a thread on that one day after the silly image thread i started is gone from the world.

citanul

[DJ Sensei]

preflop and flop are fine, this is a fine place for a probe bet, and since noone called, its probably safe to assume nobody has a pair of jacks.

the turn is where it gets interesting.
a check-raise isnt a bad idea, as the A can be a scare card (which they don't realize has actually improved your hand greatly) The problem is that despite giving the villain 2.5-1 odds, you've shown him that you have a real hand. an observant villain can assume that he'll get more chips out of you on the river, if he hits (he was right). If he assumes he can get the rest of your stack, he's paying 200 to win 450+440=890, which is about 4.5-1, which is good odds to call. Given that if he wins, he'll become the dominant stack in the tourney, but if his draw misses, he'll still have 440 left, which is plenty with blinds that low (even if they're about to move up, which i assume they are)

From the way the flop and turn played out, you can be almost certain that you're ahead here, the only things that beat you are AJ (would have raised preflop or at least on the flop) or a set (a possibility, but not terribly likely, and he'd probably bet more on the turn).

A better option for you, i think, is to lead out on the turn for 100 (still giving the 2.5-1, but you have a much better chance to escape on a dangerous river with a blocking bet)

[rydazzle]

By giving him 2.25:1 (not counting the implieds of my call on the river) I felt I gave him a chance to make a really bad play on a flush re-draw. He had 9 clubs plus 3 for the spike, not enought to make the call I felt. All in wont scare him off? Im also not sure Im ready to just pull the trigger here for all my chips (please evaluate this statement not considering me doing it on the next card, Ill get to that). My goal is to get him to make a mistake, I felt 2.25:1 odds on a suspected holding was good enough...maybe I need to learn to push, that seems like the popular way to play SNGs.

My bad was that on the CR I didnt consider the all-in I'd be faced with if the club hit. Had I thought of that, knowing I'd call the all-in most likely, I should have shoved in when I was ahead.

thx for the posts-

R

[rydazzle]

Say you took the CR line, would have CR'd knowing you'd call an all-in if a club hit?

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
My bad was that on the CR I didnt consider the all-in I'd be faced with if the club hit. Had I thought of that, knowing I'd call the all-in most likely, I should have shoved in when I was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a REALLY good point and one I don't consider enough with some of the calls I make either.

If I know I'm going to be pot-committed when/if a scare card comes down, and will have to call regardless, is there some way to quantify this in a way that will change my action on earlier streets?

I don't know if thats clear. I'm going to think about it and maybe start a thread a bit later.

[DJ Sensei]

Well, as the hand played out, the problem is the pot was big enough by the river that you had a problem tossing the hand when the flush hit. I'm not sure if i'd fold the river either, as it would be pretty easy for an opponent to push Ax just as easily as the flush. To avoid this trouble, i think you have to checkraise either more or less on the turn. If you do less, he'll have better odds to call (thats bad) If you do more, it should be a push, anything smaller than a push leaves you pot committed regardless of river. This might chase off the draw, but it might get called by a worse hand (Ax). In either case, you get your chips all in with the better hand. and your opponent makes a mistake by calling. When your opponent makes mistakes, you win.

[The Venetian]

I don't particularly like the flop bet into three opponents out of position with two cards of the same suit out there and you with nothing but second pair. That bet won't often win the pot and really won't give you much information, if that's what you're looking for.

I probably check-fold the flop unless something fishy happens, like check-check-min bet from the button. It's not worth it.

On the turn, you could have check-raised less and he still wouldn't have had odds to draw for the flush. 200 would still work...kind of nitpicky. I also like the idea others brought up about betting out again, especially with the A hitting...the BB may have tried to move you off the hand with the scare card and given you the chance to come over the top.

With the blinds still at 10/15, you can let that go on the river if he moves all-in. You're in a tough spot because you have to act first...I'm really not sure what the best play to make here is to balance the possibility that you may be ahead with losing the fewest chips if you're behind. Blocking bet, maybe?

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly like the flop bet into three opponents out of position with two cards of the same suit out there and you with nothing but second pair. That bet won't often win the pot and really won't give you much information, if that's what you're looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, probe bets are tricky when there are &gt; 2 opponents, I agree. I got great information though, 2 calls a fold, no re-raise...use that as you wish.

The more I try and give BB credit, the more I hate I am doing so. On the flop he calls a bet half the pot (3:1) with 2 live players that could re-raise. Im not sure I make this call here...

[adanthar]

His flop call is fine. His turn call is terrible but he has an ace and a flush draw so he's gonna call.

Like I said, just put him in now if you're gonna CR. He is betting into 2 people = he hit his hand and you won't move him off it.

[pergesu]

I hate the probe bet into three players. I read somewhere that the most dangerous limpers are UTG and the button, and unfortunately you're stuck with both. This looks a lot more like a "dark tunnel bluff" then a probe bet. See HOH2 pp 31-33. These are "bets which aren't really bluffs, but aren't value bets either...You don't know where you stand, you don't really know what you're doing, but it feels more active to bet than not." You say you got info on their hands, but how about you explain exactly what info you got? The only info I can deduce is that two of the players like their hands enough to call a really small bet and see another card.

Not sure why you gave up the lead on the turn. The "info" you got on the flop doesn't suggest that someone will be aggressive now. Anyone who called with non-ace overcards is done with the hand, and if someone else did just hit an ace, he'll probably raise (and it's almost certain if he hit ace + has flush draw), giving you a chance to play back again. Check-raising just says, "I really like my hand, so you either better really like yours or get the hell out." Not to mention the sin of giving up a free card to a drawer who would call a turn bet but not pay you off on a busted flush draw.