Wait till the turn

[QTip]

I know this is misapplied a lot, but I don't think it was here. What do you think?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[Entity]

It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a /images/graemlins/spade.gif draw on the turn (/images/graemlins/spade.gif, rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

[axioma]

uhh, im not sure i like ANY street there.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a /images/graemlins/spade.gif draw on the turn (/images/graemlins/spade.gif, rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bill fit for both of your descriptions.

Also, both of the limpers were loose and weak. I raise offsuit broadays (no matter the gap) about every time there.

[jskills]

Ok. I don't find myself raising with this hand preflop unless first in and in late position. I see why you're doing it though.

On the flop, I find myself almost always raising here. Two spades on the board make me uncomfortable, but maybe a raise here serves little purpose, since everyone is going to call anyway.

On a non-spade, non-pairing the board card on the turn, I can see the raise for sure. You have to just hope BB wasn't betting his 8 to begin with. I have trouble putting people in the blinds on specific hands sometimes. They could have just about anything, although your preflop raise does limit his range somewhat /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I guess your plan is to fold to a 3-bet on the turn?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends a lot on two things.

1) How often he'll lead with a worse Queen or a /images/graemlins/spade.gif draw on the turn (/images/graemlins/spade.gif, rarely -- worse Queen, often).

2) How often the callers will call the turn drawing slim.

I'd often raise the flop here but it's not imperative.

Also, it's not a big deal but you don't have to raise this preflop.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the bill fit for both of your descriptions.

Also, both of the limpers were loose and weak. I raise offsuit broadays (no matter the gap) about every time there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define "weak" in the context you're using it here. Your equity edge here isn't huge here, you're up against loose players which generally decreases folding equity, and your hand doesn't play that much better 3-ways than 5-ways.

I'm not saying I don't raise here. I just don't think it's imperative, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you raise any broadway here any time.

Rob

[McGahee]

I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you can trap the field for two big bets instead of two small bets, all while your equity edge is significantly higher.

[meep_42]

I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.

If BB is decently aggressive, I like the line. I assume you're taking a free showdown on a A,/images/graemlins/spade.gif, and maybe a K?

-d

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must plead ignorance on this.
I thought the 'wait till turn' concept was generally reserved for when the bettor is on your right? If you're last to act, you cannot protect your hand. If it's a value raise, then why not push your edge on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you can trap the field for two big bets instead of two small bets, all while your equity edge is significantly higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool - so this require a 'safe' turn card? And if so, why was the guy in this thread crucified?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2792461&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=

[W. Deranged]

Q,

What is your plan for a turn /images/graemlins/spade.gif? What about for a turn A? K?

I've found myself using this play more and more, particularly in short-handed pots and against slightly stronger/more aggressive live players. I'm still somewhat at a loss for how to approach this kind of play when the bad card comes on the turn. If, on this hand, you raised the flop and then an overcard or spade came on the turn, you would certainly bet if checked to but could release relatively cheaply if check-raised. If you wait to raise the turn, you risk putting in two big bets or even more before you realize you are up against a monster. The SB-sized difference between the losses in those two situations seems quite meaningful to me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[Clarkmeister]

re: the thread you linked, I don't think he really got cruicified. The first half of the thread supported him. I think he played it fine. The truth of the matter is that you should play it both ways from time to time.

[VBM]

i raise this flop. for me, TPGK with bd straight draw isn't enough to wait for the "safe" turn card; partially b/c we don't know what constitutes a "safe" card here and partially because we don't even know if we're winning off the flop, much less on the turn...

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Q,

What is your plan for a turn /images/graemlins/spade.gif? What about for a turn A? K?

I've found myself using this play more and more, particularly in short-handed pots and against slightly stronger/more aggressive live players. I'm still somewhat at a loss for how to approach this kind of play when the bad card comes on the turn. If, on this hand, you raised the flop and then an overcard or spade came on the turn, you would certainly bet if checked to but could release relatively cheaply if check-raised. If you wait to raise the turn, you risk putting in two big bets or even more before you realize you are up against a monster. The SB-sized difference between the losses in those two situations seems quite meaningful to me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB called my raise and MP folded.

The river was the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checked and I checked behind. Of course, I was planning on betting a rag and maybe even a raggy spade; however, the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif was just too much for me.

He showed me a red Q6 and MHIG.

[bobbyi]

I don't like it because if BB is betting a draw, he will often check it on the turn after getting called in three spots on the flop. I don't like the pf raise either without an opponent-specific reason.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[housenuts]

raising that preflop was also my concern. i guess maybe i should be making more raises like this.

i probably just raise this flop instead of the turn though.

[jjacky]

does hero still have an edge against a bettor and a caller on the turn?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not shorthanded (it's already 3-handed), it's highly unlikely you'll fold both the blinds, as you're offering BB 7.5:1, and you're bloating the pot.

I don't think it's a big deal. I just think there's less reason to raise Queen high here than you seem to be giving it credit for.

One of the biggest problems our opponents have is that they call too often postflop with the worst of it. We mitigate this problem by raising preflop because we make the pot larger, and we don't gain much from it, as our equity edge isn't particularly large, even against 3 random hands.

Rob

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not shorthanded (it's already 3-handed), it's highly unlikely you'll fold both the blinds, as you're offering BB 7.5:1, and you're bloating the pot.

I don't think it's a big deal. I just think there's less reason to raise Queen high here than you seem to be giving it credit for.

One of the biggest problems our opponents have is that they call too often postflop with the worst of it. We mitigate this problem by raising preflop because we make the pot larger, and we don't gain much from it, as our equity edge isn't particularly large, even against 3 random hands.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

There were only 2 limpers to me. Page 74 "On the button you can usually play any of these hands in an unrasied pot. If the pot is still short-handed, raise (especially with AT and KJ) to try to fold the blinds. Against several limpers, just limp in."

If the blinds are very loose and don't care whether there's a raise or not, I just limp in here.

I do understand you're thoughts, though; however I do think it's more advantageous to keep it short-handed here than to keep the pot size small since the vast majority of the time we're probably looking at a vunerable top pair hand if we even improve.

[oreogod]

But its not neccasarily shorthanded. U have two limpers, u raise, the BB is going to call this with just about anything except complete crap. He can full expect to get 7.5:1 here.

On the button I will raise this against one weak limper. With two or more, most of the time, in these games...one or both of the blinds are coming along.

EDIT: Especially with opponents that are aware u are raising weak limpers with position...if I was in BB, Id call...you probably dont have much.

[Two_Slick]

I agree with the others -- pf I limp (probably not too much difference EV wise though). I like the rest tho. I had a similar hand earlier today and played it the same raising with the blank on the turn... someone's flush hit on the river tho /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not shorthanded (it's already 3-handed), it's highly unlikely you'll fold both the blinds, as you're offering BB 7.5:1, and you're bloating the pot.

I don't think it's a big deal. I just think there's less reason to raise Queen high here than you seem to be giving it credit for.

One of the biggest problems our opponents have is that they call too often postflop with the worst of it. We mitigate this problem by raising preflop because we make the pot larger, and we don't gain much from it, as our equity edge isn't particularly large, even against 3 random hands.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

There were only 2 limpers to me. Page 74 "On the button you can usually play any of these hands in an unrasied pot. If the pot is still short-handed, raise (especially with AT and KJ) to try to fold the blinds. Against several limpers, just limp in."

If the blinds are very loose and don't care whether there's a raise or not, I just limp in here.

I do understand you're thoughts, though; however I do think it's more advantageous to keep it short-handed here than to keep the pot size small since the vast majority of the time we're probably looking at a vunerable top pair hand if we even improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

QTip,

There are 2 limpers, yourself, and when you raise, BB will come along the vast majority of the time in 2/4 unless you're telling me that you've got a read on him as a tight player (and it's obvious you didn't). 4-handed is not a shorthanded pot. It's close though. 3-handed is SH as far as I'm concerned, and I find this an easy raise with one limper as isolation. Isolation against two, however, with either a very bad or a very good player in the BB, is unlikely to succeed, and you're likely to be playing 4-ways in an 8+SB pot where your opponents mistakes will be mitigated, especially on the flop, by the pot size.

Again, I never said it's bad. I just know that you haven't read or understood HEPFAP as well as you'd like (I've gathered this from past posts of yours) and was re-emphasizing a point that many people forget. The big thing is that you've already got the Button here so your main reason for raising is to fold out the SB and BB, but it certainly comes at some expense, especially when BB will usually continue postflop anyway.

I like your flop and turn play (flop is neither a certain raise nor a certain call for me), but the river is an easy bet against this opposition. Missing value bets like these is going to cost you in the long run.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a preflop discussion/debate, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that there are excellent reasons for calling in this spot with hands like KTo and QJo.

Rob

[QTip]

Thanks Rob.

I know you didn't mean to turn it into PF, but I enjoyed it and learned as well. I'm assuming that KJ would probably be a bit different, yes?

A river bet after the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls? Man....I value bet the river more than most, I'm certain of that...but this card seems to be one of the worst in the deck for me...

You're right about HEPFAP, what section were you thinking of specifically that is commonly misunderstood?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Rob.

I know you didn't mean to turn it into PF, but I enjoyed it and learned as well. I'm assuming that KJ would probably be a bit different, yes?

A river bet after the T /images/graemlins/spade.gif falls? Man....I value bet the river more than most, I'm certain of that...but this card seems to be one of the worst in the deck for me...

You're right about HEPFAP, what section were you thinking of specifically that is commonly misunderstood?

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo is a raise for me in this position and a limp against more than two players, but I think it can stand a little more pressure and has a bit more high card value, but I don't think limping with it would be a big deal either. The big thing is that you've got a good enough hand to play and you've already got the button, and while there are some situations that would push it to an easier raise (increased FE, ability to represent a greater range of hands), these are mitigated by players who call too much in general.

The sections that seem to be misunderstood a lot (I still don't get them fully) have to do with offsuit broadways and pot size manipulation. It clicked a bit better a few weeks ago when CDC and Justin A both mentioned that after 4-5 limpers (I can't remember which), they weren't particularly interested in raising KQo OTB.

Regarding the river bet, I can see how it's a scary card, but loose opponents are still calling with a pair here, and they're checkraising better hands. I'd bet and fold to a c/r here.

Rob

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the river bet, I can see how it's a scary card, but loose opponents are still calling with a pair here, and they're checkraising better hands. I'd bet and fold to a c/r here.


[/ QUOTE ]

That answers my question then. I'm not folding here...I just won't do it. Which is why I'm not betting. Ed talked about not betting when you don't know how to handle being raised. Well, I would have known what I should have done, but I wouldn't have done it. I want to turn my cards over here.

So, this may be a small leak on my part.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding the river bet, I can see how it's a scary card, but loose opponents are still calling with a pair here, and they're checkraising better hands. I'd bet and fold to a c/r here.


[/ QUOTE ]

That answers my question then. I'm not folding here...I just won't do it. Which is why I'm not betting. Ed talked about not betting when you don't know how to handle being raised. Well, I would have known what I should have done, but I wouldn't have done it. I want to turn my cards over here.

So, this may be a small leak on my part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting and calling a c/r is better than checking against this opposition, because I think you've got the best hand more often than 66% of the time when you decide to bet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

[QTip]

So, you're telling me

c/f &gt; c/c &gt; c

I really have to ponder this. I need to do some review on this stuff.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
So, you're telling me

c/f &gt; c/c &gt; c

I really have to ponder this. I need to do some review on this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

b/f &gt; b/c &gt; c

Assuming this is the same Party $2/4 I used to play, which is loose passive and you would have been able to pick up on a trickier player, in general, by now (unless this was your first few hands at the table).

In general at $2/4, flush draws aren't leading the turn, players aren't betting gutshots, and aren't bluff-checkraising the river very often at all.

Rob

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, you're telling me

c/f &gt; c/c &gt; c

I really have to ponder this. I need to do some review on this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

b/f &gt; b/c &gt; c

Assuming this is the same Party $2/4 I used to play, which is loose passive and you would have been able to pick up on a trickier player, in general, by now (unless this was your first few hands at the table).

In general at $2/4, flush draws aren't leading the turn, players aren't betting gutshots, and aren't bluff-checkraising the river very often at all.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Right..that's what I meant. Not c/f...b/f.

Anyway, yeah...I think you're right.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise offsuit broadays (no matter the gap) about every time there.


[/ QUOTE ]
You should maybe re-think this. "Absolute" thinking is not sophisticated.