Reassure a Noob

[bluewilde]

Not sure if this is really an SnG post, but I'm more familiar with posters on this forum so figured I'd start here.

I've been trying my luck at SnGs for 3 weeks now, with negative returns. First, I put $50 dollars on Party and played $5+1s. Went down to 25 cents, then up to $97 and then I went bust. I reloaded, made back what I lost, cashed out and put my money on Stars to play the lesser rake. Had more success on Stars at first, went up to around $100. Then I lost one SnG, tried to make the $6.50 it back with a quick NL cash game where I lost $40. I then proceded to lose the rest to single/multi-table turbos.

In an act of desperation, I played Pokeroom's 2400 person freeroll this morning. Hung around 10th for an hour and a half, lost 2/3 of my stack with an AKs v. QT confrontation, and then lost the last 8,000 to something of a bad beat (needed to avoid a J or a diamond, river was J of diamonds /images/graemlins/laugh.gif). So yeah...fell out 90th (pays top 70) and missed my chances at $2 glory.

Now to the point. I've put some decent effort into really learning poker and getting into it analytically (and I understand this pales in comparison to the hours of study you guys have put in). I don't really care about winning/losing money or bad beats, but I am frustrated that I'm a losing/volatile break-even player. That is, I don't care about incidental results, but I want to learn be a "good" player. Still, I realize playing poker is a choice and that if I seek to enjoy it, I implicity accept the many forms of inevitable frustration.

So, my question is, how long did it take you all to get past the learning stage? I realize that everytime you read this forum you learn more, so I'm asking how long did it take you to learn how to be a better than break-even player (granted, in my current stake I'm broke)? How long was it till you considered youreslf good (not kick-ass, but solid)? I'm fairly committed to studing the game, but was wondering how long it usually takes to build a bit of confidence. Thanks for the input (past and future),

Blue

[wulfheir]

From one noob to another;

I made a similar post recently. You can read it here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2641704&page=&view=&s b=5&o=).

A couple of points:
1) An online bankroll of 10 Buy-ins has a high risk of ruin, especially if you are unsure if you are a winning player.
2) Playing games outside of your skill and/or bankroll is dangerous, as you know. They are worse when you are desperate.

What I did: Bought and read HoH 1 & 2. Signed up for rakeback and deposited 30 Buy-ins for the 11s.

I take notes on key hands during my tourneys. I review the HHs after the tourney, and post hands that I'm either unsure of, or want reassurance on. I 4-table the 11s, and after I finish OOTM in a set, I can look at my notes. My most recent OOTM set told me this:
SNG 1: No cards
SNG 2: Ran into monster on bubble
SNG 3&4: Got money in the middle with best hand that lost

I was able to fire up 4 more tables with confidence.

GL on your return.

[tminus]

(ive only been playing holdem for a year so take this with a grain of salt)

ive learned alot by reading and this makes me feel confident

ive learned even more by posting hands here and this makes me feel confident. especially when my losing hands are validated by some of the vets around here

my live game has improved dramatically and this gives me confidence

my online bankroll is all over the map and im not sure why

[Phill S]

Im still learning confidence, each bad streak at a time - it helps that i started keeping records and can see that i am (was) a winning player a week ago, a month ago and so on. When i started learning to play i was origionally on ladbrokes using SnGs as a break from limit ring - i hated limit ring, but loved SnGs, found this forum, the rest is history.

Just concetrate on playing one level of SnG (or one level of NL ring etc) and dont take shots to get even, this is how you go broke.

If/when you redopsit, drop 100 or so into either stars (playing their 6+0.5 turbos) or pokerroom/skin playing their 5+0.5s

Play a lot, learn a lot, profit, move up.

There is no set way to get good, and certainly no set time limit. After 3 years of on/off play i should be at a much higher level than i am in bankroll (not to mention confidence) but everyone develops at their own rate, didnt help that ive built and cashed out 3 rolls now to cover various bills.

Play poker, post hands, read threads on here and other forums. Try sites, try different forms of poker (apparently they invented poker games other than NL SnGs!). Just get comfortable, then getting good should follow.

Btw, i play poker because i enjoy it, overcoming 9 other players to win a SnG with nothing but heart, a bit of luck and their own weaknesses is thrilling for me. Going 15 OTM which is my record, wasnt thrilling. The lows often outweigh the highs, but its ego that drives most of us on.

Oh, and you dont necasserilly get better just by reading this forum, just looking around the threads and i see a LOT of misinterpreted theories and opinions that people have wrongly tried to introduce to their game (gigaplays are the current trend, we've had stop-and-goes aplenty and the PVS was quite big for a while). Its not the reading, its the understanding.

Whatever path you take with poker, good luck. And remember, we never stop learning.

Phill

[kyro]

Well I can't comment on your poker play, but your bankroll management skills seem to blow. I assume that contributes.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I have been playing on-line for about 8 months. I am still break-even at the $11's. My game has improved tremendously from when I started... when I apply what I've learned. I've read books, read the forum, posted hands and regularly review my hand histories. The bad beats are not what is keep me from being a winning player, it is my own internal demon that keeps me from winning. When I listen and APPLY the advice I receive on this forum I win, when I listen to the demon inside, I lose. When you are a patient and disciplined player, continuing to learn from every hand, every game even when you are winning (in short term) you will probably be an over-all winning player (in long term). Good Luck.

[Ixnert]

Deposited $50 a couple times last summer, lost it both times playing 10+1s with pretty much no idea what I was doing.

After some time away, put in $100 at the beginning of May, and played break-even or so for a while. Ordered HoH 1 and Super System at one point when I was up enough to order them from my poker bankroll, such as it was, and started reading these forums at about the same time. I stumbled across some posts here right off the bat in which I could see some of my major leaks, and saw just about immediate results. Hasn't been straight up, of course (I had a 24 buyin downswing a couple weeks ago that did a number on my confidence for a while, dropped back to 10s until I could identify what was going wrong), but I've been a steady winner (over, admittedly, a fairly small sample set -- about 600 tournaments since then at buyins from 10+1 to 30+3) most of the way.

There's a good chance that the great majority of your losses are attributable to a few major leaks. Take a look at the forum FAQ (order posts by most views, it's one of the top few) and read some of the linked posts, especially the ones about starting hand selection. If you take the advice therein to heart, and seriously think about your game, it'll do wonders, trust me.

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
So, my question is, how long did it take you all to get past the learning stage?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think any good poker player ever gets past the learning stage. Conditions change, there are new forms of poker to learn, etc., etc.

You say you've put decent effort into learning poker. Exactly what did this entail? If you've read HOH vol. 1 (and hopefully Vol. 2 by now) and TOP or SSH or TPFAP and read the forum and tried to apply to your playing, that sounds good. If your study revolves around watching WPT and WSOP, not so good.

If you haven't read HOH, buy at least vol 1 to start. Don't just read through once and think you're done. Read through once. Then go back and read it a section at a time playing between reading sections and really try to integrate what you read into your play. Go through the book 2 or 3 times like that. Then move on to vol. 2. Eastbay's SnG analyzer will help you with endgame push or fold strategy as well.

As far as playing, my advice is to stop moving around so much. It looks like you're looking to "score". Put about $330 in Party and play the $11 SnG's. The players are as bad as the $6, but you pay 50% less rake. Play 100 and then evaluate. You need more than 100 under your belt to say much of anything about your winrate, but less than 100 is so small it is essentially meaningless.

[reecelights]

I started in Feb '04 and dropped $425 the first month. It took me until August to get back to even.

Pay attention to the posts here about bankroll management. When I first started I knew NOTHING about BR requirements. I would deposit $100 and play $5/1 and $10/1 SNGs. If I doubled my money to $200 I would cash out. If I went broke I would re-load. The last time I went broke was in August. I deposited $110 and have only cashed out since. I keep my BR between $2000 and $3000 (except for the downswings I happen to experience just after cashing out) and now play $10, $20 and $30 buyins. According to the AleoMagus spreadsheet, my highest risk of ruin at a buy-in with over 200 game sample size is 0.02%.

What I found learning BR management did for my game was to add to the positive psychology of my play. Now, with a larger BR, I no longer feel pressure to make the money when I drop 4 buy-ins because I only have $22 left. I started accepting variance and was able to not over-analyze the most minute of details during a normal, small downswing.

[bluewilde]

Wulfeir

That is an excellent link and I appreciate your advice. You phrased it perfectly:

[ QUOTE ]
This is less a money thing, and more a success thing

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s where I’m at. I think I’ll take a break for the weekend and then go ahead with 330 for the 11s. Also, I’m definitely not thorough enough reviewing my play. I’m going to start going through each hand history.

tminus

As for posting hands, I’ve had limited success. When something goes wrong in a hand (i.e. it feels wrong, I lose hardcore or I get lost), I’m always worried it’s not thoughtful enough for the forums. Usually I blow it off and just chalk it up to “I’m an idiot.” Not the most pro-active attitude, so would you advise just throwing caution to the wind, posting and letting people tell me I’m an idiot?

Phill S

More good advice. You suggested 100 on Stars/Pokerroom $5.50 tourneys. A couple of others have advocated putting down 30 buy-ins for the $11s. Would you actively discourage that? Money isn’t too much of an issue; I put together about $600 from poker on my freshman hall (a billion $2 and $5 dollar games). I’d only bought in for $50 because I wanted to develop some skills before really risking it, but I see now that commitment to the game may require dipping into it. If, on the other hand, the issue is player quality, I’d definitely be inclined to work on easier games.

Kyro

[ QUOTE ]
your bankroll management skills seem to blow

[/ QUOTE ]
While you say you can’t comment on my play, I think you have. The glaring issue with BR management is a mix of poor discipline and general timidity (which, I suppose is lacking the discipline to be aggressive). I think that applies very much to my game right now (I’m loose when I need to be tight, and timid when I need to be aggressive). Thanks.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

I totally agree; the cause of my losses are very much internal/personal. That’s what’s frustrating about this slump: there may be times when I get my money in with the best of it and lose, but I lean back in my chair fully aware that I’m out because of my own shortcomings as a player.

Ixnert

I will, thanks!

AliasMrJones

Haha, no I’ve done more than watch WSOP and WPT (though I do love the florescent spotlights and Vince van Patton’s announcing). I have about a dozen books on poker which I’ve read and reread, but my results indicate I lack understanding. Part of the problem was applying limit ring game concepts to NL tourneys (the first 6 books I read). Finally when I got to HOH I and II, I really started to get a feel for what appropriate strategy looks like (I thought). But (clearly) I’m having a hard time recognizing these situations in real-time games. And, when I think I see a spot like what I’ve read (where the right move is counter-intuitive), I lack the confidence to really make the appropriate fold/raise/call/push. Just from reading Wulfeir’s link, people suggest continuation bets with AK might be a bit enthusiastic for the ultra-low limits. This never occurred to me. There have been flop continuation bets followed by me folding on the turn aplenty.

Therefore, I think you give great advice on re-reading, and doing so with focus and intention. I’ll work on that. As to sample size, I played about 90 games on party and (humiliating to write this) sort of “lost track” of my record on Stars (probably 25-30 games). It’s annoying that they only send you tournament results when you place, but there’s still no excuse to not keep better track of my results (all I know is I netted -$50).

Reecelights

So, would you reccomend this $330 for Party 11s mentioned above? And yeah, I figured I could skate the BR management issue, turns out I'm not smarter than the hundreds of posters who make a living doing this /images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Thanks!

Thanks to all for some really good advice,

Blue

[vindikation]

My first 6 months playing online poker I lost $1000.

The next 6 months after learning about bankroll managment, proper playing stategies and bonus whoring I won $2000.

So 6 months is the time it took me to go from a losing to winning player.

[DJ Sensei]

Another helpful idea I recently came up with that i think might help you (and me, and everyone else who isnt perfect): if you find yourself in a situation where you know you made a mistake, and cost yourself a tourney or a big chunk of chips, write it down. If it happens again, put it on a sticky note on your monitor, so the next time you think about doing something questionable, you see it there and think better of it.

examples:
- Don't bluff a total fish who'll call you with anything
- Don't get too involved in a big pot early in the tourney (levels 1-3), unless you have a very big hand
- Don't make plays at a small pot (goes along with above rule)

I'm sure yall have plenty more of these little rules (post them, please!), I think they're a big help to becoming a winning STT player.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
Phill S

More good advice. You suggested 100 on Stars/Pokerroom $5.50 tourneys. A couple of others have advocated putting down 30 buy-ins for the $11s. Would you actively discourage that? Money isn’t too much of an issue; I put together about $600 from poker on my freshman hall (a billion $2 and $5 dollar games). I’d only bought in for $50 because I wanted to develop some skills before really risking it, but I see now that commitment to the game may require dipping into it. If, on the other hand, the issue is player quality, I’d definitely be inclined to work on easier games.

[/ QUOTE ]

The amount you have in your bankroll is less important at lower limits. If your willing to reload just buy in for $20 if you want.

30 buy ins is the standard answer, though i would argue 20 is enough at the $5/$6 games (assuming you never buy in again), but its not the be all and end all. You are a losing player atm, so there is no such thing as a proper bankroll.

Its more important you put in some money and play whilst keeping track of your stats as it is to put in the correct bankroll.

Although you can search it out, 50-100 buy ins is getting near to a solid bullet proof bankroll. Just buy in what you can afford and play - worry about bankroll management when your expectation is positive.

Phill

[AliasMrJones]

One of the reasons the $11's are so beatable is even people with hold 'em experience coming from full table limit don't understand a few key concepts. I came from this background and see the adjustments I made:

1. Playing very tight early, tighter than feels right coming from full table limit. You can literally fold into into the bubble or close to it without losing that much prize money equity. This is especially true because of a lack of understanding of the next key points.

2. As the stack to blind ratio starts to get small (< 10X BB) and the number of players starts to decrease, you should be pushing/folding and pushing with less than feels good from a full table limit ring game perspective. Many players start wild and stay wild (gus hanson syndrome) or start tight and stay tight (OK, maybe not in the $11's). You need to make major adjustments as stack to blind ratio and number of players gets small. You'll see people limping for 1/3 of their stack or raising 40% of their stack and folding to a push late in a SnG or folding waiting for that good hand and letting themselves be blinded down to 1.5XBB so they have no ability to steal blinds any more. (Obviously you don't want to be doing things like this.)

3. Most players don't understand that heads up all-in hand strength is different than full table limit preflop hand strength.

4. Most players don't have much short-handed experience and virtually no heads up experience. I found reading the short handed section of HEPFAP to be helpful.

Don't dispair too much about being down after 90 games. While it probably isn't just variance at this point, it is possible for even a good player to be break even or down after 100 games.

[DrPhysic]

Blue...

Some good thoughts on this thread. I will especially comment on only three:

1. Your bankroll is way too small for the level you are playing. You need at least 15 - 25 buyins, 30 is a nice number. If you don't have $5.50 x 30 handy, there are sites with $1 or $2 SNGs.

2. Quit looking at results. The essence is "Did you make good decisions?" not "Did you win?" Look at results over your SECOND set of 500 SNGs at a given level. This also assumes that you keep good records.

3. Who started the rumor that anybody around here was past the learning stage?

Hang in, keep posting and reading, it gets better.

Doc /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[wulfheir]

[ QUOTE ]
If your willing to reload just buy in for $20 if you want.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably fine for someone who has proven himself as a winning player.

From my experience, there is a psychological toll that I take when I'm on my last buy-in. There is another psychological toll that I take when I make another reload, even though my financial situation offline is healthy.

As much as I know that a bankroll is a bankroll, regardless of where it is, it remains a barrier. A barrier that can easily be overcome with an adequate deposit. It won't make a difference if I'm a losing player, except that I will have learned I'm a losing player, rather than believing I'm a winning player who has exercised poor BR management.