Interesting suited ace

[silkyslim]

UTG and MP1 are both fishy, advice on all streets.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[davelin]

This looks fine to me.

[DeathDonkey]

Looks fine but I think you get outkicked alot.

-DeathDonkey

[btspider]

what do you guys think about a flop call instead and reevaluate on the turn.

once 3 ppl have put $$ in this flop, i think we are in pretty poor shape.

given the flop raise, there's no other way to play this hand.

[xenthebrain]

Flop and turn are standard.

I don't see much sense in raising the river.

Wouldn't have it played differently....

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you guys think about a flop call instead and reevaluate on the turn.

once 3 ppl have put $$ in this flop, i think we are in pretty poor shape.

given the flop raise, there's no other way to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to suggest the same. The flush draws are out, lots of broadway gutshot straights are out, and the potentially getting outkicked is a real possibility. Limping along getting 10:1 isn't bad since a raise doesn't protect and doesn't have a huge amount of value (I'm sure it has some). With this many players, I think you *almost* have odds (including implied odds) to spike a 3-outer seven for two pair. That doesn't even take into account the times you are ahead.

[DeathDonkey]

Well 3 have called but you have 3 more opponents behind you to worry about. Even if the bettor showed you a better ace you should probably raise. Calling the flop is ok but I think your going to be raising on the turn with a second best hand too frequently. Or do you want to just call call call? My rule of thumb is that if I'm unsure what to do in a big pot, raise now, it can never be that wrong.

-DeathDonkey

[Watain]

Preflop &gt; standard
flop &gt; i like the raise, since it could force out anyone holding a king (with a weak kicker) or a 3, that could make it two pairs on later streets.

turn &gt; i think it´s a little hard to put anyone on a flush draw on the basis of the flop. Villians holding a flush draw on the flop, could be afraid to blow out competion by forcing them to call a double-raise. If UTG had made the flush he should NOT check but bet. So logically he should´nt have a made flush. Therefore i like you bet.

river &gt; utg looks like he is holding a ace-?... so it´s fine to call i think.

- a n00b´s perspective

/Torben

[JKDStudent]

Am I the only person who expects to see a king pretty often here? I think UTG would rather c/r if holding an Ace. The bet on the river seems more like, "Well, there are two aces out, which makes it less likely that this guy has one. Also, maybe he's afraid of that second ace, so maybe I can make him fold!"

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what do you guys think about a flop call instead and reevaluate on the turn.

once 3 ppl have put $$ in this flop, i think we are in pretty poor shape.

given the flop raise, there's no other way to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to suggest the same. The flush draws are out, lots of broadway gutshot straights are out, and the potentially getting outkicked is a real possibility. Limping along getting 10:1 isn't bad since a raise doesn't protect and doesn't have a huge amount of value (I'm sure it has some). With this many players, I think you *almost* have odds (including implied odds) to spike a 3-outer seven for two pair. That doesn't even take into account the times you are ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

DD's line and reasoning are also good. His line is about maximizing the number of times he wins the pot, and my line is more conservative, looking to wait for a better situation to get the money in. I can't tell for sure how much difference there is EV-wise between the two. DD will still lose the pot (and lose more money) with some regularity, but he wins bigger pots when he does win to make up for it. My line loses more if you have problems laying down top pair if the action starts to heat up because it fails to make money when it's likely ahead on the flop, but loses less if wise turn folds are made. If I see the river with my line, I'm seeing the showdown for one bet unless something very bad shows up.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who expects to see a king pretty often here? I think UTG would rather c/r if holding an Ace. The bet on the river seems more like, "Well, there are two aces out, which makes it less likely that this guy has one. Also, maybe he's afraid of that second ace, so maybe I can make him fold!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ayou advocating that we raise the river? That wouldn't be so good.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who expects to see a king pretty often here? I think UTG would rather c/r if holding an Ace. The bet on the river seems more like, "Well, there are two aces out, which makes it less likely that this guy has one. Also, maybe he's afraid of that second ace, so maybe I can make him fold!"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll see a flush here reasonably often who didn't want to "lose customers" on the turn but didn't want the river to get checked through either. That or an ace.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who expects to see a king pretty often here? I think UTG would rather c/r if holding an Ace. The bet on the river seems more like, "Well, there are two aces out, which makes it less likely that this guy has one. Also, maybe he's afraid of that second ace, so maybe I can make him fold!"

[/ QUOTE ]

check-raise who on the flop?

check-raising is a positional move, not a move based on hand strength.

[Redd]

I think I like Aaron and Spider's plan.

To the guys who are playing it this way: if the ace doesn't fall on the river and it's checked to you, do you bet into UTG again?

[DeathDonkey]

I think this is a good summary. However, and I don't mean this to be taken too liberally, the line: call call call is rarely the best.

-DeathDonkey

[imported_The Vibesman]

Looks like what I would do, except I might think about raising the turn instead of the flop. But with the weak kicker I would probably like to know right away how frisky everyone is feeling.

I'd definitely call the river. I figure UTG either has a Kx, bet at it and backed down to the raise, and then when the 2nd ace fell decided it wasn't likely you had one, or UTG has A3, is scared of the flush on the turn and fills up on the river. I wouldn't raise, but I think the pot is definitely big enough to call.