Am I insane? (89s in huge pot) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Am I insane? (89s in huge pot)

SL__72

07-07-2005, 11:53 AM

I know posting UTG+1 is pretty dumb, but this was a ridiculously loose table and I was leaving for a movie in like 20 minutes.

I don't have PT and didn't have any notes on anyone at this table so no reads (other then 70% avg. seeing flop)

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, Hero (poster) checks, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (8 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls $0.25 (All-In), CO folds, SB caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (19 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 19 BB

I wanna wait a bit and see some feedback before I post my thought process during the hand.

gharp

07-07-2005, 12:02 PM

I have mixed feelings about the 3-bet on the flop. There's no way to protect your hand so betting out for value looks fine, but when SB check-raises the whole field he probably has a hand. Without a read, I think I'd slow down here.

But, given the way you played it, why not bet the turn? If it's because you're giving credit to someone for a flush, then why call the turn bet?

btspider

07-07-2005, 12:05 PM

if the table is that loose, i might just treat this hand like a middle pair + bd flush draw. your equity on the flop is not very good.

Aaron W.

07-07-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know posting UTG+1 is pretty dumb, but this was a ridiculously loose table and I was leaving for a movie in like 20 minutes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just have a snack and go to the movie. Do you really need to play poker to fill that time? Or else just wait *TWO* hands and post in the big blind. It's not as if this particular decision is going to kill you financially, but you do need to take your money seriously when you sit down to play, if you really want to play well. If you're just playing around... then you wouldn't be posting here.

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, Hero (poster) checks, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (8 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls $0.25 (All-In), CO folds, SB caps, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (19 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 19 BB

I wanna wait a bit and see some feedback before I post my thought process during the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would just call the check-raise and plan to raise the turn regardless of what falls.

Another plan would be to check and see what develops behind you on the flop. With such a weak top pair no kicker, I don't think I mind dumping this if it gets raised (depends on who, where, and how many callers). I don't know if I want to give you full 8 outs if it's raised, plus you have spade redraws against you.

SL__72

07-07-2005, 12:19 PM

The fact that MP1 post/called, called the flop betting then bet out here kinda scared me. I thought there was a chance that he either had a 2 or a flush, but I also thought there was a chance he was just betting because it was checked to him.

Also at this point I'm thinking SB might just have overcards or maybe is on a straight draw since he just called here.

xenthebrain

07-07-2005, 12:22 PM

First of, leaving in 20 minutes is not an excuse for posting from EP.

I'm not sure, but I think the flop is fine.
A lot of cards on the turn criple you here, but the pot is huge and you gotta try to limit the field somehow.

The 2 of clubs is a scarecard, it pairs the board and sets a possible flush on board.
To check and see what happens is ok IMO.

I like the idea of calling on the flop and raising the turn though.

SL__72

07-07-2005, 12:22 PM

I was already playing 2 other tables and had just left a 3rd due to the fact it was down to like 4 players...

I don't really know why I posted, I think it was probably because I was having a pretty good night and was a little overanxious to start playing at this table.

gharp

07-07-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that MP1 post/called, called the flop betting then bet out here kinda scared me.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're UTG+1 so you act before MP1 -- you couldn't have known he was going to bet out on the turn.

In general, I think those 3rd flush cards can be as scary for the other players as they are for you. So just bet if you think you have the best hand. If you're bet is raised, then it's time to start thinking MP1 might have that flush.

Also, by checking you give infinite odds to anyone with a single /images/graemlins/spade.gif and kittens have been killed around here for far, far less.

SL__72

07-07-2005, 01:24 PM

Ok, how far off was my thinking during the hand?

Post UTG+1 (obviously dumb, I don't really know what I was thinking)

Preflop:
Call seems obvious with this much in the pot.

Flop:
Not really very strong, but I still might have the best hand at this point. I 3-bet to try and isolate SB and wasn't terribly thrilled to see MP1 call. SB caps, eh, call.

Turn:
SB could be checkraising here and I would like to see a showdown so I just check(in retrospect this is probably really weak). MP1's bet suprised me a bit but when SB just calls I I'm getting such good pot odds I call.

River:
Doesn't seem likely this card is going to be relevent so I just check planning on calling 1 bet.

Final Pot: 19 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 8h 9d (two pair, eights and twos).
MP1 has 7s 6c (two pair, sixes and twos).
MP3 has Jd Ah (one pair, twos).
SB has 7d 5s (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 19 BB. 

The reason I posted this hand is because I thought I played it poorly and I'm a little worried about becoming too result-oriented.

econ_tim

07-07-2005, 01:41 PM

Anyone c/r the flop? If MP3 makes a continuation bet, maybe this will at least eliminate a couple of players.

Aaron W.

07-07-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone c/r the flop? If MP3 makes a continuation bet, maybe this will at least eliminate a couple of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you considered the relative position of MP3?

gopnik

07-07-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
would just call the check-raise and plan to raise the turn regardless of what falls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you, please, explain the advantage of this play? I don't think I understand it....

econ_tim

07-07-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone c/r the flop? If MP3 makes a continuation bet, maybe this will at least eliminate a couple of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you considered the relative position of MP3?

[/ QUOTE ]

nevermind, guess could only get rid of MP1 and MP2.

chopchoi

07-07-2005, 02:31 PM

Don 't have much to say about the hand, other than that I don't necessarily agree with everyone who says that positing in EP is so dumb in a small stakes game.

When you post, you expect a random hand, which will win fewer than less than it's fair share, and you get to play one additional hand for free, which may also win a nice sized pot. I think a good player can expect to get about 15 cents of this money back. It may take 3 minutes to wait for the blind. Three minutes of my time is worth much more to me than 10 cents, so I would be willing to post in this situation.

I think some people get too caught up with the bottom line. There is a tendency to look down on players who have any motivation other than proifit. This is a mistake. If I our goal was truly to maximize our hourly earnings, any of us would do a whole lot better moonlighting as waitrers and waitresses at TGI Fridays than we ever will playing $1/$2 limit poker. I don't care how many tables you play. So it really isn't all about the money for any of us. If someone wants to sacrifice a few cents of e.v. for the sake of enjoying himself, try not to knock him for it.

xxxx5847

07-07-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think some people get too caught up with the bottom line

[/ QUOTE ]

You're in the wrong forum, bro.

davelin

07-07-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think some people get too caught up with the bottom line. There is a tendency to look down on players who have any motivation other than proifit.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an unstated assumption on these forums that the advice given on hands are for the most +EV play. For those people who want to play for relaxation/fun, this forum isn't for them.

chopchoi

07-07-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think some people get too caught up with the bottom line. There is a tendency to look down on players who have any motivation other than proifit.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an unstated assumption on these forums that the advice given on hands are for the most +EV play. For those people who want to play for relaxation/fun, this forum isn't for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play for money and for fun. Winning is fun and losing is not, so money and fun go hand in hand. that being said, there are times that I might make a slightly -ev play just for fun. For example, suppose I have had a dead run of cards for an hour, and I don't have time to play anymore. I'm out when the next blind rolls around. I get J8s UTG. I might play it, simply because it is the last hand of the night. Yeah, I might be losing 5 cents of ev, but I'll go to bed happier because I finally got to play a hand. Or I could make more money playing 4 tables at a time instead of 2. I tried that, but I couldn't follow the action as well, and didn't enjoy it as much, so I went back to 2 tabling. EV is very important, but there are other considerations. Anyone who denies that should take their blinders off.

Aaron W.

07-07-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think some people get too caught up with the bottom line. There is a tendency to look down on players who have any motivation other than proifit.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an unstated assumption on these forums that the advice given on hands are for the most +EV play. For those people who want to play for relaxation/fun, this forum isn't for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play for money and for fun. Winning is fun and losing is not, so money and fun go hand in hand. that being said, there are times that I might make a slightly -ev play just for fun. For example, suppose I have had a dead run of cards for an hour, and I don't have time to play anymore. I'm out when the next blind rolls around. I get J8s UTG. I might play it, simply because it is the last hand of the night. Yeah, I might be losing 5 cents of ev, but I'll go to bed happier because I finally got to play a hand. Or I could make more money playing 4 tables at a time instead of 2. I tried that, but I couldn't follow the action as well, and didn't enjoy it as much, so I went back to 2 tabling. EV is very important, but there are other considerations. Anyone who denies that should take their blinders off.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be missing the point completely.

There's nothing wrong with playing those hands for fun. But if you post that hand, expect a few hundred "Fold PF"s. We're not denying the fun factor of the game, but the posts here are not to share about how much fun the game of poker can be. Posts here are to help learn to analyze poker mistakes so that fewer of them are made. There's an obvious mistake being made (posting UTG+1) and it should be pointed out.

We're not looking down at the player who is posting UTG+1, but we're looking down at the value of that particular decision.

chopchoi

07-07-2005, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You seem to be missing the point completely.

There's nothing wrong with playing those hands for fun. But if you post that hand, expect a few hundred "Fold PF"s. We're not denying the fun factor of the game, but the posts here are not to share about how much fun the game of poker can be. Posts here are to help learn to analyze poker mistakes so that fewer of them are made. There's an obvious mistake being made (posting UTG+1) and it should be pointed out.

We're not looking down at the player who is posting UTG+1, but we're looking down at the value of that particular decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not missing the point at all. If the original poster had simply shared a hand history where he had posted UTG+1, and didn't mention the fact, and other posters let him know that he shouldn't do it, then I wouldn't have said anything.

However, he stated that he knew it was incorrect to post under the gun, but that he had to go somewhere in 20 minutes, and he didn't want to wait. This should have been enough, but for some reason, several posters still felt the need to chime in about how dumb it is to post in EP, and that having somewhere to go and not wanting to wait is not a good reason for doing it. Maybe for them it is not, but for him it is, and they don't need to criticize him for it after he already acknowledged that it wads not technically correct.

Also, for all of you "EV is everything" people, see my thread titled "st00pid question." I think it makes the point in a better way.

SL__72

07-07-2005, 04:46 PM

At this table it might have been +EV to post UTG... I mean random cards have pretty good equity vs. 76o and 75o /images/graemlins/smile.gif

gharp

07-07-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop:
Call seems obvious with this much in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you have a hand that plays well in a multi-way pot, so giddyup.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
Not really very strong, but I still might have the best hand at this point. I 3-bet to try and isolate SB and wasn't terribly thrilled to see MP1 call. SB caps, eh, call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should 3-bet to isolate someone if you don't think your hand is strong, unless you know that someone is a maniac. Here you had just sat down, so this play is pretty questionable.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn:
SB could be checkraising here and I would like to see a showdown so I just check(in retrospect this is probably really weak). MP1's bet suprised me a bit but when SB just calls I I'm getting such good pot odds I call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well this is consistent with your thought process, but I think you'd have been better off calling on the flop, then betting the turn if he checked to you.

[ QUOTE ]
Results ...

[/ QUOTE ]
In retrospect, SB's play to build the pot with his open ended straight draw (high equity) was pretty nifty. But he had know way of knowing it would work like it did. He should have just led out. And his preflop call was crap.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I posted this hand is because I thought I played it poorly

[/ QUOTE ]
That's probably the reason for about 90% of the hands posted here. And we all just keep learning...

btspider

07-07-2005, 05:42 PM

davelin

07-07-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, for all of you "EV is everything" people, see my thread titled "st00pid question." I think it makes the point in a better way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really. I know what you're trying to get at but it's somewhat flawed.

Aaron W.

07-07-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You seem to be missing the point completely.

There's nothing wrong with playing those hands for fun. But if you post that hand, expect a few hundred "Fold PF"s. We're not denying the fun factor of the game, but the posts here are not to share about how much fun the game of poker can be. Posts here are to help learn to analyze poker mistakes so that fewer of them are made. There's an obvious mistake being made (posting UTG+1) and it should be pointed out.

We're not looking down at the player who is posting UTG+1, but we're looking down at the value of that particular decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not missing the point at all. If the original poster had simply shared a hand history where he had posted UTG+1, and didn't mention the fact, and other posters let him know that he shouldn't do it, then I wouldn't have said anything.

However, he stated that he knew it was incorrect to post under the gun, but that he had to go somewhere in 20 minutes, and he didn't want to wait. This should have been enough, but for some reason, several posters still felt the need to chime in about how dumb it is to post in EP, and that having somewhere to go and not wanting to wait is not a good reason for doing it. Maybe for them it is not, but for him it is, and they don't need to criticize him for it after he already acknowledged that it wads not technically correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand why you're so adamant about defending OP. Here are his own words about his own decision after the first post:

[ QUOTE ]
Post UTG+1 (obviously dumb, I don't really know what I was thinking)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really know why I posted, I think it was probably because I was having a pretty good night and was a little overanxious to start playing at this table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I said about it:

[ QUOTE ]
Just have a snack and go to the movie. Do you really need to play poker to fill that time? Or else just wait *TWO* hands and post in the big blind. It's not as if this particular decision is going to kill you financially, but you do need to take your money seriously when you sit down to play, if you really want to play well. If you're just playing around... then you wouldn't be posting here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the only other PF comment (excluding the back and forth about the appropriateness of it) that I found:

[ QUOTE ]
First of, leaving in 20 minutes is not an excuse for posting from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me why these comments are inappropriate.

Then tell me how this is sort of play is different from somebody saying "I knew I should have folded to that river check-raise, but I called because I wanted to see." It's the same attitude of making poor decisions because "I'm willing to pay for it" that prevents people from playing better poker. Maybe Hero's intention wasn't to play solid poker at the time. Are we supposed to assume that? I hope not, otherwise posting quality will sink far below its current level.

In the end, the poster is responsible for his own play. Suggestions of alternate possibilities are just suggestions. If he values playing those extra two hands more than waiting two minutes, then that's for him to decide. This board is about getting +EV (money, not entertainment EV) ideas out there, and whether anyone actually follows it is up to them.

SL__72

07-07-2005, 06:45 PM

Yeah it was dumb, I know that and it really wasn't the part of the hand I needed feedback on. At the same time I DID post from EP and reinforcing that point really doesn't hurt. (I usually wait for BB no matter where I start)