Botched (?) QQ-hand.

[kongo_totte]

Villian is 25/5 and seems pretty solid. I have seen him re-raise A K in position pre-flop once (not min.raise). How bad is it not to raise the flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($54.2)
UTG ($17.5)
UTG+1 ($58.23)
MP1 ($64.8)
Hero ($80.85)
CO ($23.29)
Button ($51)
SB ($47.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB (poster) raises to $3.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1.50, CO calls $1.50.

Flop: ($11) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $1</font>, Hero calls $1, CO calls $1.

Turn: ($14) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $20</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $42

Fire away.

[soah]

Raise to 10 on the flop and see what happens.

[PinkSteel]

Raise the flop to $10-12 and fold his Jacks.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 10 on the flop and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought, but I figurewd the board was pretty safe and I onle fear an A or K. Figued I was way ahead or way behind.

Note that I totally agree with you though. I was just telling you my thoughts in this momen tof confusion.

[directscooter]

He might be suckering me in here but I raise to $12 on the flop and see what happens. If SB pushes I think I am beat, but more often than not you probably get both to fold.

[soah]

Two live overcards doesn't meet my criteria for "way behind"

[Pulp]

The 8$ bet on the turn surely would have scared off anything that you beat. The weak re raise preflop could mean one of two things: He wanted to look weak with AA/KK or he thought YOU looked weak with TT JJ AQs. Given his check raise on the turn, you could put him on AA, although JJ wouldnt be a bad choice either since the J hit. Good fold.

[amoeba]

I'm not sure why you think it was botched.

you didn't lose that much and you got an almost free turn where the chances of you hitting a Q when he holds AA/KK is just as good as him hitting a J when you have QQ.

on the turn its probably a hand that has you beat. good fold.

if you had raised the flop, and he calls (hes not goign to fold JJ), and then he weak leads the turn or checks the turn when the J comes, what do you do?

I think you played it fine.

[unlucky513]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you think it was botched.

you didn't lose that much and you got an almost free turn where the chances of you hitting a Q when he holds AA/KK is just as good as him hitting a J when you have QQ.

on the turn its probably a hand that has you beat. good fold.

if you had raised the flop, and he calls (hes not goign to fold JJ), and then he weak leads the turn or checks the turn when the J comes, what do you do?

I think you played it fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

you think? at first glance, it looks like he played the hand like a big weiner. re-raise preflop, blast the flop.. i'm not folding QQ to this board.

[amoeba]

so you 3 bet preflop?

and if called?

what board would you fold to aside from one with an A or K?

[amoeba]

incidentally I think there is a good chance villain has AK.

I just don't see AA or KK checkraising the turn like that.

I might have found a call on the turn.

[unlucky513]

yes i'd 3 bet preflop. i'd make it at least $12 to go. on the flop if he leads for $1 i'm pushing. if he checks, i'm potting it, obviously calling any push from SB.

if he catches trips on the turn, just say nh and rebuy.

[Ghazban]

A couple questions for you:

-- Do "solid" players minreraise from the SB? You said he seemed solid but the first thing he does in this hand screams "DONK"
-- Is AJ a possibility? He bets small on the flop with nothing but overcards, hits one, and thinks he's good. Someone with those stats probably doesn't play AJ this way but you never know....
-- (unrelated to the hand) is that you in your avatar? I never envisioned you looking like that

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple questions for you:

-- Do "solid" players minreraise from the SB? You said he seemed solid but the first thing he does in this hand screams "DONK"



[/ QUOTE ]


He seemed solid before the hand was played. Of course his play in the OP-hand screams weird-bad.

[ QUOTE ]

-- Is AJ a possibility? He bets small on the flop with nothing but overcards, hits one, and thinks he's good. Someone with those stats probably doesn't play AJ this way but you never know....

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, before this hand he seemed solid and I have played quite a few hands with him. IMO, I think he had AA/KK and screamed for a raise on the flop. He probably knows I'm very aggressive post-flop and was hoping for that. His turn actions indicates J J, which I'm still behind of. I can't see him holding a hand I beat on the turn. 9 9 is not impossible either. If I call the turn, I'm playing for my stack. I really don't think I'm ahead often enough to make it +EV. The real question is whether I should have raised the flop or not, which I think I should have.

[ QUOTE ]

-- (unrelated to the hand) is that you in your avatar? I never envisioned you looking like that

[/ QUOTE ]

It's me allright. Sorry to disappoint you. What did you think I looked like? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Ghazban]

From a results-oriented standpoint, raising the flop would've been bad as AA-JJ all call the raise and, once the turn hits, they're all beating you (well, except the other QQ). You probably should've lost more with this hand but I think you already know that.

I don't know what I envisioned you looking like. My father is 1/4 swedish and looks very Nordic and you look nothing like him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[theben]

raise the flop

[amoeba]

you are going to need to elaborate.

what is your plan if a blank rolls off and he bets 1/2 pot?

what is your plan if a blank rolls off and he checks?

what is your plan if a blank rolls off and he bets full pot?

I think alot of you guys like raising the flop purely because raising the flop is the aggressive thing to do and you guys like picking the more aggressive thing to do.

[Ghazban]

I'd raise the flop to get CO out and charge the PFR to draw at what are likely overcards. If CO calls my flop raise, I'm pretty sure he's got a good hand (set seems most likely to call a bet+raise). If PFR calls my flop raise and bets into me on a brick turn, I probably fold. If he checks an A/K turn, I check behind and hope to get to showdown cheaply. If he checks a J turn, I bet and he checkraises me, I'm done with the hand.

[theben]

he made a weak bet on the flop. if you raise it, you can quickly find out where you stand. if you just call on all streets, you'll have no way of knowing where you stand. you might end up folding on the turn to a double barreled continuation AK bet or you might end up calling the flop/turn drawing to a 2 outer. if you raise the flop and he plays back, then you can get away from your hand with strong certainty about correctness at a fair price you choose on the flop

[amoeba]

I think the only advantage of a flop raise is to charge missed AK.

if I just call the flop, I'm definitely calling the turn.