Terror attack in London

[daveymck]

Some bombs on buses and on the underground, scary stuff was going to be in London tonight.

Just breaking now but isnt looking good.

[daveymck]

Even scarier I was going to drive down this road tonight

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41276000/jpg/_41276407_kingscross1_203.jpg

[Willluck]

pretty [censored] up.

[Lalit Khajuria]

Yeah my friend just called me, little paniac where he is right now.

[daveymck]

Its starting to sound really bad.

[mmbt0ne]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I was going to make some inappropriate joke about France being pretty upset about the Olympics, but I think it's better just to let Mr. Frowny Sad Face do the talking.

Are all of the 2p2 locals accounted for?

[Willluck]

This is scary, I haven't seen anything on google or aim about this. ???

[Dynasty]

From FoxNews

LONDON — Multiple explosions shook London on Thursday morning, as a series of blasts were reported on the city's trains and buses. As many as three explosions were said to have occured on buses, and several more were reported in the train system. There were said to be multiple casualties.

An explosion destroyed a double-decker bus near Russell Square not long after several blasts were reported on London subways, police said. A witness said the entire top deck of the bus was destroyed.

"I was on the bus in front and heard an incredible bang, I turned round and half the double decker bus was in the air," Belinda Seabrook told Press Association, the British news agency.

She said the bus was packed with people.

"It was a massive explosion and there were papers and half a bus flying through the air," she said.

Officials shut down the entire underground network after the explosions. Initial reports blamed a power surge, but officials were not ruling out an intentional attack.

The attacks came a day after London was awarded the 2012 Olympics and as the G-8 summit was getting underway in Scotland.

One witness, Darren Hall, said some passengers emerging from an evacuated subway station and that some passengers had soot and blood on their faces. He told BBC TV that he was evacuated along with others near the major King's Cross station and only afterward heard a blast.


The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Bungler]

My thoughts are with everyone in the UK.

It's on all the cable news right now.

[MarkL444]

have they estimated casualties?

[Vavavoom]

If anyone is watching - Aldgate Station is 300 yds from my office!

There is approx 150 police ringed off the roads around my building.....

We can't leave our building....

This is some scary [censored].......

Working in the City of London.......ain't so great anymore....

Too coincidental with winning Olympic Bid ...... they have been waiting fro a chance to undermine our city and its syatem...looks like the perfect time !!!

At least I'm still safe.....at the mo....

[Dynasty]

On FoxNews, a British guy just said he thought 7 explosions could be confirmed.

He also mentioned he heard a second explosion went off in the same location as one of the first explosions. The reason for that would be to wait for the emergency services to arrive and then hit them again. (I believe that's an IRA tactic)

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
have they estimated casualties?

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxNews is reporting and unconfirmed 90 casualties. I would expect the # to go up from anything that gets reported in the next couple hours.

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
On FoxNews, a British guy just said he thought 7 explosions could be confirmed.

He also mentioned he heard a second explosion went off in the same location as one of the first explosions. The reason for that would be to wait for the emergency services to arrive and then hit them again. (I believe that's an IRA tactic)

[/ QUOTE ]

Rudolph pulled the same thing at one of his abortion clinic bombings. At least, I think it was him, it might've been someone else in GA though.

Be safe Londoners.

[Klepton]

this sucks

[bugstud]

now I can't sleep /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[TheTROLL]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my friend just called me, little paniac where he is right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Initial reports were of power surges on the Underground system causing explosions, but that's been discredited now that at least one, possibly three double-decker buses have been blown up.

My office is right in the middle of the affected area - staying put for now as the streets are a bit scary with buses going off, but will head home when it's been quiet a couple of hours. Local time 10.53am now, first blast was reported 8.59am

[Dynasty]

We're starting to get TV interviews with survivors. The first couple have had blood on their faces while they talked with reporters. Those images are going to stick.

[TylerD]

"terrible injuries".

"A police spokesman said there were "quite a large number of casualties"

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm)

Politicians had warned it was inevitable that terrorists would hit the UK, I was trying not to believe them until now.

[ijustliketoplay]

Im sitting in my office in Trafalgar square and i feel sick.

Multiple explosions above and below ground. Buses and Tubes all shut down. still finding packages now.

[ijustliketoplay]

Army on the streets now.

[parappa]

I'm sitting in my flat and wondering (not that it hasn't crossed my mind before) why the hell I live in London.

[Vavavoom]

I was about to get a lift home from work....

CEO of my company has come on email asking everyone to stay in building as police have advised streets are not safe at the moment where we are....

[AlcateL]

Head of the metropolitan police just spoke, 6 explosions that they know about.

Liverpool Street
Moorgate
Edgewere road
not sure about the other two tube stations

And a bus.

I went to gutshot card room in London yesterday which meant i went to Liverpool Street and then through Moorgate, pretty [censored] up.

No confirmed deaths yet but casualties certainly.

Eyewitnesses have reported seeing bodies covered by sheets in the roads.

Thats all we know. If you're in London STAY WHERE YOU ARE - all transport is down.

[cpitt398]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have they estimated casualties?

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxNews is reporting and unconfirmed 90 casualties. I would expect the # to go up from anything that gets reported in the next couple hours.

[/ QUOTE ]


They just said on the news that the term casualties refers to injuries as well in England

[TheTROLL]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're in London STAY WHERE YOU ARE - all transport is down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Fortunately the basement of my office is a bar with a TV, so that makes the decision easy.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have they estimated casualties?

[/ QUOTE ]

FoxNews is reporting and unconfirmed 90 casualties. I would expect the # to go up from anything that gets reported in the next couple hours.

[/ QUOTE ]


They just said on the news that the term casualties refers to injuries as well in England

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. The "death count" I've just heard is 2 at Aldgate East, but it must be higher--it's hard to believe the Russel Sq. bus explosion didn't kill anyone.

[daveymck]

well if the bus was packed we are talking 200 ish people and looking at the bus noone got out of that. Tube carriges hold the same so I am expecting 1000+ casualties minimum with quite a few deaths.

Must have been preplanned for months with G8 meeting.

Police are playing it down at the moment trying to stop panic but I think this could be really bad.

PLeased not working in London at the moment but I am still going to go there to play poker not letting stuff like this stop me.

[AlcateL]

Well if you're not there in the rush hour you're likely to be okay.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you're not there in the rush hour you're likely to be okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thakfully its not tonight I would have been there in the evening rush hour getting to the gutshot.

[ddubois]

I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act. I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you continue? What were you trying to accomplish?

[ditto]

Hi

its pretty mad, I work on that road in Kings Cross, we have been told to stay in the ofice until further notice.

There is no transport at the moment - takes me 2 hours to get to work when its working, its going to be a long walk...

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act. I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[/ QUOTE ]

The old its not in the US it doesnt matter STUFU dickhead.

We were attacked many times by the IRA this blowing up of some buses and on the tube is bigger than anything they ever did and more so targeted poeple to kill and maim, we are talking about many of hundreds of people killed here not a couple on a bus.

[parappa]

Do you think that you could you wait until the afternoon, or at least until they're done finding bombs, before bringing us this wonderful dose of perspective and how it's not so bad as we think?

[Lalit Khajuria]

One good thing tho, reports on BBC and also in local radio news, told emergeny have worked very well. And the hard training they have done in London helped at least something.

Also on radio news expert kept saying how well planned this was by the terrorist, right time, right targets, etc.

[cpitt398]

i was going to post about the number of people injured and it being low compared to one would expect in an enclosed area (subways) and compared to the number of explosions. but i thought I might be undermining a tragedy. I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore, somebodies made it sound much worse than I was afraid I would come across

[ditto]

The emergency services have been fantastic, everything seems very well coordinated...

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act. I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[/ QUOTE ]

When has anyone tried to make this out to be as bad as a nuclear bomb? Some people got together and decided it would be a good thing to kill lots of random, innocent people. That is just a terrible thing.

[ijustliketoplay]

Don't know why people are arguing over this. This is STILL HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

Anyone guessing at deaths/casualties is doing just that. Believe me, this is bad. Real bad.

[Matty]

CNN has a map up of the 7 confirmed explosions right now.

[zoomOut]

Really upset by this horrendous tragedy. You are in our prayers Londoners. Hang in there.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say,

[/ QUOTE ]

If your goal was to instanly become everyone's least favorite poster, consider your mission accomplished. Otherwise, shut the f[/i]uck up and die you f[/i]ucking dick.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
i was going to post about the number of people injured and it being low compared to one would expect in an enclosed area (subways) and compared to the number of explosions. but i thought I might be undermining a tragedy. I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore, somebodies made it sound much worse than I was afraid I would come across

[/ QUOTE ]

They will be bringing out the injured first the announcements of deaths and stuff will come a lot later, the british police tend to wait for facts before passing it to the media.

There are people still stuck on trains in between stations I have been stuck in one like that for half an hour and it was bad enough and paniky enough, I cant imagine been there for 3 hours with the fear of a bomb going off as well. Ferryin g people to hospoital on buses so we are talking a lot of people.

The BBC will be being ultra cautios on reporting as they have a new policy after the russain massacre of ensuring and delaying information until it becomes fact.

I have the same stomach wrenching feeling I had on 9/11, hoped we had escaped it.

[TylerD]

Please delete this post moderator. This type of view/argument may have its time and place, but its certainly not in this thread, and its definately not now.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say,

[/ QUOTE ]

When has anyone tried to make this out to be as bad as a nuclear bomb? Some people got together and decided it would be a good thing to kill lots of random, innocent people. That is just a terrible thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad to see that you're okay! You and spamuell and the other London 2+2ers are in our thoughts. We hope all those that you care about are okay.

[POKhER]

Not much to be said, Besides thoughts go to those whom have lost loved ones, Friends and co-workers.

I'm expecting alot more attacks in london, But dont fear or feel a need to replan things or stay at home.

Will never understand what these attacks acomplish, But hopefully our preplanned procedures will help control the choas.

Overall london seems calm, London network services are jammed (O2/Orange/Vodaphone and other cell phone providers).

Not much to be said, RIP THose who are dead - Just hope there are no other bombs placed in hospitals, as a "fall back" plan.

Londoners will have to be alot more vigilant, Specially whilst on public transport.

[Skjonne]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act. I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are an idiot

[MissOt]

i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act. I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to friends whom have had family injured, Limbs lost and serious smoke inhalation and then we'd see how you feel.

Comparing one loss of life to millions doesn't make that loss any better.

One life lost in bad enough, How about if your father got blown up on his way to work? How about your mother? Grow up.

[Lalit Khajuria]

Just heard on BBC there is two trains stuck, and they are starting a big rescue operation, also emergency service have brought big pipes to get the smoke out of there.
This can get very bad.

[cpitt398]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i was going to post about the number of people injured and it being low compared to one would expect in an enclosed area (subways) and compared to the number of explosions. but i thought I might be undermining a tragedy. I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore, somebodies made it sound much worse than I was afraid I would come across

[/ QUOTE ]

They will be bringing out the injured first the announcements of deaths and stuff will come a lot later, the british police tend to wait for facts before passing it to the media.

There are people still stuck on trains in between stations I have been stuck in one like that for half an hour and it was bad enough and paniky enough, I cant imagine been there for 3 hours with the fear of a bomb going off as well. Ferryin g people to hospoital on buses so we are talking a lot of people.

The BBC will be being ultra cautios on reporting as they have a new policy after the russain massacre of ensuring and delaying information until it becomes fact.

I have the same stomach wrenching feeling I had on 9/11, hoped we had escaped it.

[/ QUOTE ]


well thats a bit different than here. we tend to overestimate and then come down. Hopefully it stays low.

One thing I would like to comend the Londoner's for is the compusure they are keeping. The interveiwee's are not quick to blame or overestimate as the live reports I'm used too despite the interveiwer's attempts

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

It's too well coordinated for it to be a reaction to the Olympic announcement.

The timing may be related to the G8 conference.

[cpitt398]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess no, not enough time to plan

[daveymck]

Body after body coming out of Russel Square, major stuff still going on a Kings Cross.

Kings cross is so busy at the moment is the hub of trains coming in for the north and the tubes are extra busy as the thames link has been closed so evryone has to get off there.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

Too soon, too coordinated unless they had something planned in every city that was a candidate.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

More g8 related I feel meeting started today.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

Too soon, too coordinated unless they had something planned in every city that was a candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they did, the other cities would have been hit too.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I'm far enough away not to be directly affected by this but I have friends who live/work in that area that I've been trying to get hold of (just heard back from the one I was most concerned about, thankfully).

My thoughts are with any of you directly caught up in this.

Sheriff

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

More g8 related I feel meeting started today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but they probably realised the Olympic announcement would be a bonus for their terror campaign.

[AlcateL]

You were sure it was poor taste to say.

if a bomb went off on your bus and you died, and i said to your wife/mother "oh this happens all the time in lots of countries its not as bad as a nuclear bomb" she would say stfu and die.

So I would like to say STFU and die.

[daveymck]

Just had the american embassy on my phone trying to track down students on course at Oxford.

Looks like the bus was suicide bomber.

[evil_twin]

I heard from a guy who works at British Telecom that all mobile phone networks have been disabled for fear that the bombs were set off by Mobile phone a la the Spain attacks.

[cpitt398]

cnn is changing it two 3 tube bombings

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
cnn is changing it two 3 tube bombings

[/ QUOTE ]

Sky says 6 plus the bus, people wondering if the bus one went off early and it was meant for the tube.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
You were sure it was poor taste to say.

if a bomb went off on your bus and you died, and i said to your wife/mother "oh this happens all the time in lots of countries its not as bad as a nuclear bomb" she would say stfu and die.

So I would like to say STFU and die.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to state it looked like you were replying to me, simple mistake I'm sure, but I just want to state I was not responsible for being such a fucker.


The Bus sounds pretty awful. I used to live off that square when at UCL. There was allways lots of bomb scares back then, euston would cease up, sometimes the road outside would be shut down. You couldn't get anywhere. Beyond the immediate tragedy, this is going to make everyday life in London even more difficult.

[cpitt398]

scotland yard is reporting that the tube bombings were each in between 2 stations, causing them to each report bombings

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You were sure it was poor taste to say.

if a bomb went off on your bus and you died, and i said to your wife/mother "oh this happens all the time in lots of countries its not as bad as a nuclear bomb" she would say stfu and die.

So I would like to say STFU and die.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to state it looked like you were replying to me, simple mistake I'm sure, but I just want to state I was not responsible for being such a fucker.


The Bus sounds pretty awful. I used to live off that square when at UCL. There was allways lots of bomb scares back then, euston would cease up, sometimes the road outside would be shut down. You couldn't get anywhere. Beyond the immediate tragedy, this is going to make everyday life in London even more difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

bus look horrendous

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41277000/jpg/_41277449_bus_close_reader.jpg

[TheTROLL]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard from a guy who works at British Telecom that all mobile phone networks have been disabled for fear that the bombs were set off by Mobile phone a la the Spain attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, they're just busy or switched to emergency restricted capacity to save bandwidth for priority calls. I've had a couple of incoming calls and texts, but am returning them by landline calls to avoid worsening the problem.

(Edit - not disputing you heard that, of course)

[cpitt398]

any theories on the advanced knowledge by Isreal. Conflicting reports.

[AlcateL]

I wasn't replying to you stigma i was replying to

ddubois

[El Barto]

Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?

[/ QUOTE ]

No we should be going after the terrorists not nation states as in the current policy.

[Jazza]

fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side

edit: no i didn't answer your question, but just wanted people to not do silly things out of fear

[cpitt398]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are not fighting the war effciently. If this is a group out of Italy,like intially reported, should we, or the UK, put forces in Italy too? Isolating the cause might be a better start.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side

[/ QUOTE ]

I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate. We are just trying to solve a situation we didn't ask to be involved in. And we have the right to solve it, and we will solve it despite the calls from those who wish to give up.

[dawade]

Heart and prayers go out to all the fellow 2+2ers in London, as well as the others involved in this horrific display.

Hopefully this isn't a precursor to another US attack in the coming hours/days/weeks...

[Jazza]

[ QUOTE ]
I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope you're right, but i don't know how you can speak on other people's behalf

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
we will solve it despite the calls from those who wish to give up.

[/ QUOTE ]Who in what warped reality of yours is calling on us to do that besides the terrorists themselves?

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope you're right, but i don't know how you can speak on other people's behalf

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have not heard anything from any US administration official that suggests that hate is a motive in our actions.

If some random citizen hates, that does not really affect our policy.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side

[/ QUOTE ]

I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate. We are just trying to solve a situation we didn't ask to be involved in. And we have the right to solve it, and we will solve it despite the calls from those who wish to give up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there's some valid debate to be had on these points, but please stop hijacking this thread.

[stigmata]

We should be reducing East-West tension -- as you say, by not invading nation states, but also by setting up a palestinian state along something like the original UN partition plan.

There is so much global Arab-White tension - these terrorist attacks are just the end of the spectrum. I think these two very different cultures need to engage each other and overcome the root cultural clashes. This goes way back to the Crusades and earlier in the Holy Land. I can't help thinking that we will only begin to solve these problems when an amicable agreement is made between the three monotheistic relegions over the "ownership" of mankinds spiritual birthplace.

/random rant.....

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

More g8 related I feel meeting started today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but they probably realised the Olympic announcement would be a bonus for their terror campaign.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea Im sure the terrorists had insiders inside the OIC to tell them London was going to win the bid. This had nothing to do with the Olympics and everything to do with the G8. Blair has had to leave the meeting, they were due to discuss climate change and global warming today.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure there's some valid debate to be had on these points, but please stop hijacking this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you want no discussion about the fight against terrorism in a thread about a terrorist attack on civilians.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure there's some valid debate to be had on these points, but please stop hijacking this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you want no discussion about the fight against terrorism in a thread about a terrorist attack on civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if you want to discuss it, you are free to put up a post that says "in light of the terrorist bombings in London today, do you think we should (whatever your position is)?" And that way this thread won't be destroyed in a pile of everyone's generic foreign policy statements.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

More g8 related I feel meeting started today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but they probably realised the Olympic announcement would be a bonus for their terror campaign.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea Im sure the terrorists had insiders inside the OIC to tell them London was going to win the bid. This had nothing to do with the Olympics and everything to do with the G8. Blair has had to leave the meeting, they were due to discuss climate change and global warming today.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wasnt suggesting that..... I was saying the terrorists were as happy as the rest of us when London was named. People are so frigging pedantic round here.

[stigmata]

Sky has some interesting developments:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188265,00.html

GROUP CLAIMS ATTACKS
A terror group linked to al Qaeda has claimed it carried out a series of terror attacks on London that have left a number of people dead and hundreds injured.

A previously unknown group calling itself "Secret Organisation al Qaeda in Europe" said it carried out the attacks as revenge for British "military massacres" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
....
Scotland Yard has denied reports they were warned of an attack by Israel minutes before the blasts.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure there's some valid debate to be had on these points, but please stop hijacking this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you want no discussion about the fight against terrorism in a thread about a terrorist attack on civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if you want to discuss it, you are free to put up a post that says "in light of the terrorist bombings in London today, do you think we should (whatever your position is)?" And that way this thread won't be destroyed in a pile of everyone's generic foreign policy statements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about terrorism (including terrorism policy) is on topic in this thread.

Just for you, I will refrain from discussing other foreign policy issues (such as trade policy). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm sure there's some valid debate to be had on these points, but please stop hijacking this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you want no discussion about the fight against terrorism in a thread about a terrorist attack on civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and if you want to discuss it, you are free to put up a post that says "in light of the terrorist bombings in London today, do you think we should (whatever your position is)?" And that way this thread won't be destroyed in a pile of everyone's generic foreign policy statements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk about terrorism (including terrorism policy) is on topic in this thread.

Just for you, I will refrain from discussing other foreign policy issues (such as trade policy). /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh.

[stigmata]

This is the claim to the attacks

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,490370,00.jpg

[Lalit Khajuria]

In a letter located by SPIEGEL ONLINE on a Web site trafficked by al-Qaida, a document that claims to be written by the interntional terror group claims responsibility for the London attacks.

"Rejoice, community of Muslims," the letter states. "The heroic mujahedeens today conducted an attack in London," it continues. All of Great Britain is now shaken and shocked, "in the north, the south, west and east." "We've warned the British government and the British people time and again," the letter adds. "We've kept our promise and have carried out a blessed military operation."

"We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all other crusader governments." We demand that all countries pull their troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq, states the letter, which has been signed by the "Secret Organization -- al Qaida in Europe."

[-Skeme-]

This post was [censored] retarded.

[parappa]

The horrible irony here is that the Aldgate/Liverpool Street area (where 3 of the bombs went off) has one of the highest percentage population of Muslims in London. On a numbers basis, Muslims were much more likely to be injured/killed by an attack in this area than elsewhere.

[MelK]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the claim to the attacks

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,490370,00.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says they don't have a sense of humour.
Did you all catch the joke in line 7?

[daveymck]

Fantastic speech from Ken Livingston on the wires at the moment, very proud, very moving and agree with everything he said.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. ..

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's an eyewitness report:

"People were screaming and shouting and saying things like I'm dying, I'm dying, please help me.

I saw people just standing there in their underwear as if their clothes had been ripped off [by the explosion].

I think I saw somebody who was dead it was just indescribable."

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[crownjules]

[ QUOTE ]
There is so much global Arab-White tension - these terrorist attacks are just the end of the spectrum. I think these two very different cultures need to engage each other and overcome the root cultural clashes. This goes way back to the Crusades and earlier in the Holy Land.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny thing is, from the birth of the US up until WWII, the US had very good relations with the Middle East. Then we double-dealt and helped form Israel on land previously promised to the Arab people.

My thoughts go out to the Londoners.

[daveymck]

Reporter reckons unofficially Scotland Yard saying 1,000 injured, 150 seriously (lost limbs etc) and around 40ish killed, but people still trapped in wreckage.

[spamuell]

I'm ok as well, I'm just getting over the shock, I was so nearly there but I chose to sleep in today and my mother was in Kings Cross as it happened but thankfully she is fine.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is in poor taste to say, but in the grand scheme of things, a few buses being blown up doesn't seem to me to be that big of a deal. It's an everyday occurance in several countries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is in poor taste and the rest of this is wrong. Organized multiple bombings like what happened in London today is a big deal and it is not an everyday occurrence in "several countries".

[ QUOTE ]
It's an everyday occurance in several countries. It's nothing on the order of magnitude of flying an airliner into a skyscraper, poising a water supply, or detonating a dirty bomb. If you want to have something to quiver in your boots regarding, think like I do: Eventually, someone, somewhere, is going to detonate a nuclear bomb as a terroist act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your poor taste continues and your timing is horrible.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just hoping that it occurs after my children have grown old and died.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!? so it can happen to your children’s kids?? how about you hope something like this does not happen at all.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is so much global Arab-White tension - these terrorist attacks are just the end of the spectrum. I think these two very different cultures need to engage each other and overcome the root cultural clashes. This goes way back to the Crusades and earlier in the Holy Land.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny thing is, from the birth of the US up until WWII, the US had very good relations with the Middle East. Then we double-dealt and helped form Israel on land previously promised to the Arab people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much, much, much more too it then just this.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Fantastic speech from Ken Livingston on the wires at the moment, very proud, very moving and agree with everything he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony Blair's speech was also excellent. His thoughts are right on how attacks like this are attacks against all nations and how people that organized these attacks on innocent people will never succeed in what they are trying to achieve for their own "cause".

No political cause from some terrorist group will ever be justified by the killing of innocent people.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fantastic speech from Ken Livingston on the wires at the moment, very proud, very moving and agree with everything he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony Blair's speech was also excellent. His thoughts are right on how attacks like this are attacks against all nations and how people that organized these attacks on innocent people will never succeed in what they are trying to achieve for their own "cause".

No political cause from some terrorist group will ever be justified by the killing of innocent people.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what they all said about the post-9/11 Bush speeches. How quickly things will change. Before long the kooky left will be back to criticizing Blair for everything.


(ps - this message was posted at 9:11 am EDT in commemoration of the 9/11 attacks)

[mslif]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are not fighting the war effciently. If this is a group out of Italy,like intially reported, should we, or the UK, put forces in Italy too? Isolating the cause might be a better start.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, we are fighting a ghost! War on terrorism is an uncoventional war by all means. Terrorists are everywhere, in very country. I don't think that sending troops anywhere is a very good idea. I think this war should be fought via our intelligence services not troops.

[colgin]

Our thoughts are with those of you in London. Be well and stay strong.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Some bombs on buses and on the underground, scary stuff was going to be in London tonight.

Just breaking now but isnt looking good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang in there guys.

[Mike Gallo]

The timing may be related to the G8 conference.

[SippinSoma]

Ddubois, I [censored] hate you. This is the first time in months I'm going to go watch the news. My thoughts are with you Londoners.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
Our thoughts are with those of you in London. Be well and stay strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not in London, but I am from London. I have been listening intently to the reports, and despite the pain and confusion, one thing is clear - Londoners are remaining calm, resolute and strong in spirit, much like they did in the Blitz, much like the rest of the UK people acted through IRA campaigns, much like the Oklahamans with the bombings, much like those in Madrid, and much like New Yorkers did with 9/11.

Whilst I am sad and pained by what's going on, I am also proud of the quality of people that sometimes emerges in times of deadly and grievous events beyond their control.

Only good thing about all this, and I felt it was worth saying.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is so much global Arab-White tension - these terrorist attacks are just the end of the spectrum. I think these two very different cultures need to engage each other and overcome the root cultural clashes. This goes way back to the Crusades and earlier in the Holy Land.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny thing is, from the birth of the US up until WWII, the US had very good relations with the Middle East. Then we double-dealt and helped form Israel on land previously promised to the Arab people.

My thoughts go out to the Londoners.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I follow you on this. The Barbary Pirates (http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/wwww/us/barbarypiratesdef.htm) were Arabs, were they not? Note the definition in 'Social Studies for Kids': ...at first signed treaties with the United States in which they promised to stop attacking American ships. However, they broke those treaties.

Fcuk these dogs. Send them all to their reward with Allah.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our thoughts are with those of you in London. Be well and stay strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not in London, but I am from London. I have been listening intently to the reports, and despite the pain and confusion, one thing is clear - Londoners are remaining calm, resolute and strong in spirit, much like they did in the Blitz, much like the rest of the UK people acted through IRA campaigns, much like the Oklahamans with the bombings, much like those in Madrid, and much like New Yorkers did with 9/11.

Whilst I am sad and pained by what's going on, I am also proud of the quality of people that sometimes emerges in times of deadly and grievous events beyond their control.

Only good thing about all this, and I felt it was worth saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and in 9/11 there were 20 or so losers from Al Qaeda willing to fly a plane into a sky scraper to kill others while there were hundreds or thousands of NYPD and NYFD (heroes) ready to go into those burning buildings to give their lives to help save others. That is why I love my country.

[TylerD]

According to radio reports on Five Live the emergency services and hospitals have responded excellently to the disaster.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No we should be going after the terrorists not nation states as in the current policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I agree with this.

Mack

[samjjones]

Everybody be safe and extra vigilant out there.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side


[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly enough, the terrorists, operating out of envy, may have inspired more anger than they want to deal with.

This is a country that hung tough while Hitler bombed London to rubble. Does Al Qaida think the UK is going to tuck tail and run a'la Spain? Not likely.

[STLantny]

I know it was asked before, but are all twoplustwo members ok? I know a couple from #twoplustwo were in and out of london over the last couple months. I hope they are alright.

[superleeds]

[ QUOTE ]
I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. It is overwhelmingly based on economics.

[Vavavoom]

I have just got in from my office that like mentioned before is 300 yards from Aldgate Underground Station....

These explosions shocked a lot of the brokers on our floor as several of them were in the US for 9/11 as my companys NY office had 2 floors - I believe 113/114..of one of the WTC Towers...The entire NY office bar ~ 25 Brokers was wiped out....

This has been one scary day and its not over yet....

Unfortunately, what I believe is :

There will be ~ 200 people at the least killed.....1500 at the very least injured.......Its a very sad day for the UK, Europe and probably brings back lots of memories for other countries that have lost people to terrorist attacks over the past 20 years....

*10 people dead at Edgware Road...
*2 at least ~ Aldgate...
*Bus on russell Sq....got to be at least 25-50 !!!!

THIS IS SCARY SCARY STUFF !!!!!

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
i wonder if this has anything to do with the olympics and if nyc or paris would have won what would happen

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. Take's more then a day to coordinate. Most likely the g8. This sucks. So sick of this crap. Best to all our pals over there. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ChipWrecked]

U.S. law enforcement has just released a figure of 40 dead. What a horrible crime. Be strong, brothers.

Arab terrorism IMHO is based on envy of the power of the West. Arab culture dominated the world at a time when Europeans were still trying to get the mud out of their ears. However, Europe and the West took the knowledge the Arabs had (e.g. the zero concept, basis of higher math) and ran with it, building a culture far superior to that of the Arabs, while the Arabs stagnated. Now, rather than try to catch up, Arab (Islamic) terrorists would rather pull us down to the way things were 700 years ago, the time of their own glory. If the U.S. hadn't built the Saudi oil fields, they and their Wahabbi masters would still be burning camel dung for fuel this day.

I know this isn't a popular view among the Chomsky disciples here on the board, i.e. we deserve it for being such meanies to the poor, poor, Islamists.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can honestly say that our anti-terror actions are not based on hate

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. It is overwhelmingly based on economics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost everything in politics is in some way based on economics, it's difficult to even think of something that is in some way not effected by economic conditions. But your assumption that it is "overwhelmingly" based on economics is wrong. Just because some politically influenced groups argue that it is does not make it true. ah, this is not an argument needed for this forum and especially not for this thread.

[Larimani]

It wasn't me. Honest.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this isn't a popular view among the Chomsky disciples here on the board, i.e. we deserve it for being such meanies to the poor, poor, Islamists.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one thinks we deserve it. Please don't try to create division like this where there is none, especially not at the moment.

[revots33]

Hope all the London 2+2ers are ok.

I am deeply saddened by man's inhumanity to his fellow man. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Lori]

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS SCARY SCARY STUFF !!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

The terrorists' best strategy is to release all their stuff in one go and hope that panic does the rest for them.

Remember how on 9/11 there were reports all day of potential extra attacks and the suchlike, and none of them ever actually happened.

It would be bad tactics to "Keep anything back" as they know there will be people hunting down suspect packages and the suchlike immediately after the first one goes off, which is why they do them all at once.

Everyone's thoughts are with you, but the odds are now that you'll be completely fine (I'm not saying I wouldn't be scared, just trying to point out the logic to you, as I'm not sure I'd be thinking clearly if I were in London)

All the best to all you Londoners.

Lori

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our thoughts are with those of you in London. Be well and stay strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not in London, but I am from London. I have been listening intently to the reports, and despite the pain and confusion, one thing is clear - Londoners are remaining calm, resolute and strong in spirit, much like they did in the Blitz, much like the rest of the UK people acted through IRA campaigns, much like the Oklahamans with the bombings, much like those in Madrid, and much like New Yorkers did with 9/11.

Whilst I am sad and pained by what's going on, I am also proud of the quality of people that sometimes emerges in times of deadly and grievous events beyond their control.

Only good thing about all this, and I felt it was worth saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.
May London, as well as those in some way affected by this, have a speedy recovery.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
U.S. law enforcement has just released a figure of 40 dead. What a horrible crime. Be strong, brothers.

Arab terrorism IMHO is based on envy of the power of the West. Arab culture dominated the world at a time when Europeans were still trying to get the mud out of their ears. However, Europe and the West took the knowledge the Arabs had (e.g. the zero concept, basis of higher math) and ran with it, building a culture far superior to that of the Arabs, while the Arabs stagnated. Now, rather than try to catch up, Arab (Islamic) terrorists would rather pull us down to the way things were 700 years ago, the time of their own glory. If the U.S. hadn't built the Saudi oil fields, they and their Wahabbi masters would still be burning camel dung for fuel this day.

I know this isn't a popular view among the Chomsky disciples here on the board, i.e. we deserve it for being such meanies to the poor, poor, Islamists.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a very naive point of view... How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[Vavavoom]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Our thoughts are with those of you in London. Be well and stay strong.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am not in London, but I am from London. I have been listening intently to the reports, and despite the pain and confusion, one thing is clear - Londoners are remaining calm, resolute and strong in spirit, much like they did in the Blitz, much like the rest of the UK people acted through IRA campaigns, much like the Oklahamans with the bombings, much like those in Madrid, and much like New Yorkers did with 9/11.

Whilst I am sad and pained by what's going on, I am also proud of the quality of people that sometimes emerges in times of deadly and grievous events beyond their control.

Only good thing about all this, and I felt it was worth saying.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well said.
May London, as well as those in some way affected by this, have a speedy recovery.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is indeed times like this that Human Spirit is shown in its finest hour !!

[Vavavoom]

At least ~ 30 dead from the trains....so far....Live Police report...

Unconfirmed numbers from the buses.....

~48 Critical
~300 suffering from minor injuries......

Still others being assessed.....
Its only going up...

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, what I believe is :

There will be ~ 200 people at the least killed.....1500 at the very least injured.......Its a very sad day for the UK, Europe and probably brings back lots of memories for other countries that have lost people to terrorist attacks over the past 20 years....

*10 people dead at Edgware Road...
*2 at least ~ Aldgate...
*Bus on russell Sq....got to be at least 25-50 !!!!

THIS IS SCARY SCARY STUFF !!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on the police press conferance its looking around about what you said confirmed 30 ish deaths but as I said here the police are very cautious on releasing death figures on previous train crashes etc.

The practices etc they have done in the past seems to have paid off it would appear the rescue efforts have worked relatively well, or as well as you could expect in such chaos.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

My condolences to everyone affected. London is a great city in a great country.

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is extremely naive too. They started this war and you are an idiot. That is all.

[hansarnic]

[ QUOTE ]
This has been one scary day and its not over yet....


[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me about it. BBC has just reported that it was a westbound Hammersmith &amp; City line tube that was blown up at ten to nine.

Bit of a chill down my spine as I waited for that tube at Baker Street for a while before we were told there was a 'traction problem' and we should use the other lines.

I think it was the last carriage too, which is always where I get on as it's less crowded.

Weird sensation to feel 'thankful' that it went off before it got to me, but also know that it meant other people got killed who would have got off if it happended a few mins later.

Tragic day

[samjjones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know this isn't a popular view among the Chomsky disciples here on the board, i.e. we deserve it for being such meanies to the poor, poor, Islamists.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one thinks we deserve it. Please don't try to create division like this where there is none, especially not at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

NOBODY deserves this.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is extremely naive too. They started this war and you are an idiot. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

So many people in the world have died because of the actions of the US... Unfortunately, Blair just licks Bush's ass... And the result is what we see today.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a very naive point of view... How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a circular argument, because you KNOW we're going to point to the previous atrocities committed by Islamics radicals to justify the action in Iraq.

So when does this stop? You know the major countries in the world are going to protect themselves. So by committing these acts against us the terrorists are guaranteeing an reaction that will give themselves an excuse for doing ANOTHER terrorist act. It is insane, and childish reasoning.

And what US and UK are doing in Iraq is not an atrocity. The Islamic radicals are the ones kidnapping, beheading, suicide bombing, etc. The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

KO

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, OK. Speaking of atrocities, you do know that Mohammed was married to a six-year old girl, don't you?

[Vavavoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Bit of a chill down my spine as I waited for that tube at Baker Street for a while before we were told there was a 'traction problem' and we should use the other lines.

I think it was the last carriage too, which is always where I get on as it's less crowded.


[/ QUOTE ]

I start work at 7.15am so this incident wouldn't necessarily affect me directly...i think it is tragic for the country as a whole...

So far, my checklist of friends is still good....but its a case of fingers crossed as I have friends scattered all over london.....

This attack has hit 2 of the busiest terminals in London (Liverpool Street &amp; Kings Cross) and the financial district of London (ie.. Aldgate/Moorgate).......

Glad to hear that you had God on your side this morning...

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is extremely naive too. They started this war and you are an idiot. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

So many people in the world have died because of the actions of the US... Unfortunately, Blair just licks Bush's ass... And the result is what we see today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think people are dying because of the actions of some [censored] middle eastern lunatics. I'm not a fan of the Iraq fiasco, but blaming these attacks on US actions is silly.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is a very naive point of view... How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a circular argument, because you KNOW we're going to point to the previous atrocities committed by Islamics radicals to justify the action in Iraq.

So when does this stop? You know the major countries in the world are going to protect themselves. So by committing these acts against us the terrorists are guaranteeing an reaction that will give themselves an excuse for doing ANOTHER terrorist act. It is insane, and childish reasoning.

And what US and UK are doing in Iraq is not an atrocity. The Islamic radicals are the ones kidnapping, beheading, suicide bombing, etc. The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I need to remind you that no link between Iraq and Al-Quaida have been found. Moreover, action on Iraq was done because of the existance of weapons of mass destruction *cough* *cough*.

The attacks of 9/11 were a result of American foreign policies (inc. support of Israel)

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

[/ QUOTE ]


No.

[Larimani]

I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.

I find it quite appauling that the U.K. are more and more acting like the U.S.

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, OK. Speaking of atrocities, you do know that Mohammed was married to a six-year old girl, don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

At least it wasn't his cousin, like you red-knecks. You sound like a ignorant, rascist [censored] by the way. Who are "they" exactly?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not a fan of many US policies, especially under the current administration, but this is clearly rubbish.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

w
t
f
?

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

[/ QUOTE ]


No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, actually.

http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_ties.php

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep it coming. You are just providing further proof that my original assessment of you is correct. You are certainly an idiot.

[adios]

...........

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is a very naive point of view... How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a circular argument, because you KNOW we're going to point to the previous atrocities committed by Islamics radicals to justify the action in Iraq.

So when does this stop? You know the major countries in the world are going to protect themselves. So by committing these acts against us the terrorists are guaranteeing an reaction that will give themselves an excuse for doing ANOTHER terrorist act. It is insane, and childish reasoning.

And what US and UK are doing in Iraq is not an atrocity. The Islamic radicals are the ones kidnapping, beheading, suicide bombing, etc. The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I need to remind you that no link between Iraq and Al-Quaida have been found. Moreover, action on Iraq was done because of the existance of weapons of mass destruction *cough* *cough*.

The attacks of 9/11 were a result of American foreign policies (inc. support of Israel)

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mention Al Qaeda... did I say Al Qaeda? Nope... didn't say Al Qaeda.

Iraq had definite, and proven ties to global terrorism.

And I don't think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.

The reasons for action in Iraq were two-fold:
1. We though they had WMD.
2. They had ties to global terrorism.

We didn't want #2 to get #1, so we made sure it couldn't happen.

[TylerD]

Please keep this [censored] in the Politics forum.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Please keep this [censored] in the Politics forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll stop posting, too.

KO

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not a fan of many US policies, especially under the current administration, but this is clearly rubbish.

[/ QUOTE ]Thank you Spamuell.

Hope all of you are safe over there.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Maybe I was over-reacting there a bit... but you guys just have to stop acting like a bunch of Jedi's going on a crusades to spread "freedom" and american values... (at least that's what Bush wants you to think... the truth is all these wars have only one goal ---&gt; money)

I'm really not a fan of many US policies, especially under the current administration, but this is clearly rubbish.

[/ QUOTE ]

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not a fan of many US policies, especially under the current administration, but this is clearly rubbish.

[/ QUOTE ]Thank you Spamuell.

Hope all of you are safe over there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I hope so too.

[Larimani]

Good point.

Condoleances to the victims' friends &amp; families

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Please keep this [censored] in the Politics forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a sincere and thoughtful effort from entering into an argument with the OP; however his retarded comment should not go unquestioned. Saying that "The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil." is beyond absurd. I don't care what forum a statement like that is posted in, it should be questioned. However, I refrained from making an argumentative or political statement.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

Illegal?? Saddam was illegally violating the rules set worth in the treaty that HE signed stating that because he lost the war in Kuwait that he could not build an army over 100,000... he blatantly disobeyed this. The US and UK were well with in their rights for their actions as stated in the same treaty, Saddam's military actions were illegal.

100,000 dead?? Were do you get this from, you stat it as if it were fact when it is not true at all. Did you forget that Saddam killed and tortured MILLIONS of Iraq’s just because they had different political and religious views.

Larimani you completely close-minded, you are letting political opinions blind you from facts.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

Illegal?? Saddam was illegally violating the rules set worth in the treaty that HE signed stating that because he lost the war in Kuwait that he could not build an army over 100,000... he blatantly disobeyed this. The US and UK were well with in their rights for their actions as stated in the same treaty, Saddam was illegal.

100,000 dead?? Were do you get this from, you stat it as if it were fact when it is not true at all. Did you forget that Saddam killed and tortured MILLIONS of Iraq’s just because they had different political and religious views.

Larimani you completely close-minded, you are letting political opinions blind you from facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

One last comment on this topic:
If the West do not change their foreign policies &amp; genuinely strive to reduce the gap between poor &amp; rich countries, there will be many more terror attacks in the future. This is guerilla tactics, you won't beat it with tanks.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please keep this [censored] in the Politics forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made a sincere and thoughtful effort from entering into an argument with the OP; however his retarded comment should not go unquestioned. Saying that "The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil." is beyong absurd. I don't care what forum a statement like that is posted in, it should be questioned. However, I refrained from making an argumentative or political statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a bit silly that this thread turns into politics but. I don't think US is an incarnation of evil, but US abuses in the Middle east is and has been grave and discussing terror and causes without taking US' atrocities into account is silly as it is one of the main indirect causes to this.

EDIT: To attack innocent London civilians no matter reason is an incarnation of evil.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.


[/ QUOTE ]


Illegal?? Saddam was illegally violating the rules set worth in the treaty that HE signed stating that because he lost the war in Kuwait that he could not build an army over 100,000... he blatantly disobeyed this. The US and UK were well with in their rights for their actions as stated in the same treaty, Saddam was illegal.

100,000 dead?? Were do you get this from, you stat it as if it were fact when it is not true at all. Did you forget that Saddam killed and tortured MILLIONS of Iraq’s just because they had different political and religious views.

Larimani you completely close-minded, you are letting political opinions blind you from facts.

[/ QUOTE ]


Stop watching Fox News.

[MoreWineII]

I [censored] hate Bush, and an increasing number of Americans are starting to feel the same way if you believe the polls.

And I'll admit that America has some very serious flaws that are only going to get worse with time. But I don't think we're evil. Just ignorant about a lot of things and too arrogant to care.

You gotta understand though, that there's a significant portion of this country that is completely at odds with what this administration is trying to do, both at home and abroad (Iraq).

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear that you had God on your side this morning...

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa...whoa...whoa there fella.

Take it to the religion forum. Any mention of G...d is strictly prohibited from OOT and society in general. Haven't you heard?

[Larimani]

I completely agree with you. American people are ignorant but the American governement is evil.

I do not agree with you that the majority of people in the U.S. do not agree with Bush policies... I mean he just got re-elected, didn't he?


EDIT: my bad, you said "significant portion"

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear that you had God on your side this morning...

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa...whoa...whoa there fella.

Take it to the religion forum. Any mention of G...d is strictly prohibited from OOT and society in general. Haven't you heard?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh stfu. why are people so intent on making jokes in this thread?

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The US and UK (and many others) are freeing a country from an atrocious leader, who had well-known relations with global terrorism.

[/ QUOTE ]


No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, actually.

http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_ties.php

[/ QUOTE ]

What that report says (and it is compiled by a US-based foreign relations council) is that Iraq trained some guerillas and Palestinian freedom fighters.

The rest of it, basically, is

Q: Did Iraq have links to Al-Qaeda?
A: Possibly. They're evil.

Q: Did Iraq play a role in the 9/11 attacks?
A: They might've. You never know!

I appreciate what you're saying in that they funded x, or sheltered y, over the years but I don't consider this "global terrorism".

[edit: point taken about keeping this out of OOT, I shall comply. No further posts on the topic]

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Glad to hear that you had God on your side this morning...

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa...whoa...whoa there fella.

Take it to the religion forum. Any mention of G...d is strictly prohibited from OOT and society in general. Haven't you heard?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh stfu. why are people so intent on making jokes in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the trend towards taking all references to God out of society is a joke?

The supreme court doesn't think so.

NuHamshur motto: "Live Free or Die"

[touchfaith]

This sucks.

Sorry pond buddies, hope each of your families are safe.


Message to world: DON'T [censored] with the UK. A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[parappa]

Why is "Please take this to 'Politics'" so [censored] confusing?

[stigmata]

[ QUOTE ]
100,000 dead?? Were do you get this from, you stat it as if it were fact when it is not true at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was published in the Lancet. This is civilian deaths.

You do nothing but reinforce opinions of Americans as stupid, arrogant and culturally unaware.

[MoreWineII]

Why do you care so much?

[TylerD]

[ QUOTE ]
A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thank God for that, I don't know how we'd cope without you.

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is "Please take this to 'Politics'" so [censored] confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the post?

I didn't see the 'take it the Politics' comment until I'd posted.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is "Please take this to 'Politics'" so [censored] confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people think you can talk about a political event without discussing politics?

The people who died today, died because of a desire of terrorists to make a "political statement" against the UK and her allies.

This has been a political thread from the beginning, you just don't seem to be able to understand that. Politically motivated murder = politics.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thank God for that, I don't know how we'd cope without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut ist dieses noch der Platz noch das Gewinde für es, aber, Ihre Frage zu beantworten. Sie würden Deutsches sprechen. Wachsen Sie auf

[TylerD]

How predictable.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is "Please take this to 'Politics'" so [censored] confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people think you can talk about a political event without discussing politics?

The people who died today, died because of a desire of terrorists to make a "political statement" against the UK and her allies.

This has been a political thread from the beginning, you just don't seem to be able to understand that. Politically motivated murder = politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this thread should be about the act of terrorism that happened today, not just another opportunity for your to expound on your deep thoughts about terrorism generally. By repeatedly jumping up and down and saying "look at me, I'm so smart! Aren't I special?" while sharing the same opinions on general issues that you've undoubtedly been sharing routinely in the past, you are just adding unnecessary noise to the thread.

[MelK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thank God for that, I don't know how we'd cope without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut ist dieses noch der Platz noch das Gewinde für es, aber, Ihre Frage zu beantworten. Sie würden Deutsches sprechen. Wachsen Sie auf

[/ QUOTE ]


Without the French during the Revolution, you Americans might be speaking English right now.


(yet another predictable rejoinder)

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
How predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is predictable (and sad) is how younger people are able to dismiss history.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thank God for that, I don't know how we'd cope without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut ist dieses noch der Platz noch das Gewinde für es, aber, Ihre Frage zu beantworten. Sie würden Deutsches sprechen. Wachsen Sie auf

[/ QUOTE ]


Without the French during the Revolution, you Americans might be speaking English right now.


(yet another predictable rejoinder)

[/ QUOTE ]

We can't speak it now, what makes you think we could have learneded it then /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
This sucks.

Sorry pond buddies, hope each of your families are safe.


Message to world: DON'T [censored] with the UK. A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

To lighten the mood a bit - I think that it's patently clear that if there's one thing the British never, ever do, it's run away from a fight. It's one of the few things we excel at.

Except maybe that one that ended in 1776 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[unimproved]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A direct attack on the UK is a direct attack on the US and we will respond to it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh thank God for that, I don't know how we'd cope without you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut ist dieses noch der Platz noch das Gewinde für es, aber, Ihre Frage zu beantworten. Sie würden Deutsches sprechen. Wachsen Sie auf

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I owe thanks to hundreds of thousands of dead Russians for that, actually. But good try.

[MoreWineII]

I said majority originally, but I don't know if that's necessarily true so I changed it. I'd say the number hovers around 50% for/against Bush - but it seems to getting more and more anti-Bush. Several people that I know personally who voted for him are uncertain now.

Anyway, I recently saw a poll that showed that around 53% or so of Americans do not support the war in Iraq, that's what I was probably thinking.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
To lighten the mood a bit - I think that it's patently clear that if there's one thing the British never, ever do, it's run away from a fight. It's one of the few things we excel at.

Except maybe that one that ended in 1776 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The Brits would never give up after only one year of fighting. The fighting didn't stop until 1781, and the treaty wasn't signed until 1783.

And then there was the rematch we like to call the War of 1812.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AngryCola]

Your post makes me physically ill.

I sincerely hope something bad happens to you.

EDIT-

Also, the people who turned this thread into a political debate are absolute and total scum.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is predictable (and sad) is how younger people are able to dismiss history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst we all appreciate the US's help the war actually started in 1939 had the US came in wholesale then, it may not have became such a huge conflict.

We are a strong hardy people quite capable of defendig ourselves but it is good to have allies to call on when we need suppoert.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100,000 dead?? Were do you get this from, you stat it as if it were fact when it is not true at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was published in the Lancet. This is civilian deaths.


[/ QUOTE ]

the Lancet report was vaguely based on a door-to-door survey between 988 households in Iraq. And this number in this report is not all based on allied military forces actions. Other studies have shown as many as 16,000 civilians died, others have shown more. My point is that its difficult to conclude a number and stat it as a FACT.

[ QUOTE ]


You do nothing but reinforce opinions of Americans as stupid, arrogant and culturally unaware.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another vague generalization of Americans, your intelligence shines through on every post. This coming from someone who just the other day posted pictures like the KKK and other unfortunate events in US history with the thinking that Americans celebrate those on the 4th of July.

[KungFuSandwich]

I just heard about this and my first reaction was to check two plus two and hope none of our friends in London were hurt.

I will keep you all in my prayers

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the people who turned this thread into a political debate are absolute and total scum.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to expect no political discussion about a political event is retarded.

The people who died today, died because of a desire of terrorists to make a "political statement" against the UK and her allies.

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is predictable (and sad) is how younger people are able to dismiss history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst we all appreciate the US's help the war actually started in 1939 had the US came in wholesale then, it may not have became such a huge conflict.

We are a strong hardy people quite capable of defendig ourselves but it is good to have allies to call on when we need suppoert.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes suffering has to occur before friends realize how much they need each other. The years between 39 and our involvment are the key years in our relationship, when we each realized how good of friends we really are.

We where not always the economic &amp; military superpower of the world. We became one, in a matter of a few years, out of neccesity, to combat those who threatened ourselves and our allies (you).

Stone Phillips said it best a few minutes ago on NBC...

(paraphrased)

"Didn't they pick the wrong target? Doesn't this just stregnthen our (the US) resolve?"

Yes they did and yes it does.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, the people who turned this thread into a political debate are absolute and total scum.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to expect no political discussion about a political event is retarded.

The people who died today, died because of a desire of terrorists to make a "political statement" against the UK and her allies.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two reasons this thread shouldn't have been turned into a political debate.
I'll let you figure out what they are, although I somehow doubt you'll be able to.

Also, the seperation of church and state in the US has little to do with this event.
That discussion has no place here, and neither does a flame war between the both of us. Let's just leave it at that.

EDIT - Also, I never said I didn't "expect" political "debate". I just stated the fact that anyone who turns this thread into one is, in fact, complete scum.
It didn't surprise me at all.

[MoreWineII]

I'm sorry, but while I feel sorry for the victims, this has everything to do with politics.

Your "guilt trip" is silly.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but while I feel badly for the victims, this has everything to do with politics.

Your "guilt trip" is silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a guilt trip, it's a simple fact... scum.
I didn't expect anyone to feel guilty about it, but it is the truth.

Later,
AC

[ QUOTE ]
neither does a flame war between the both of us. Let's just leave it at that.

[/ QUOTE ]

[daveymck]

I know your intent want to do such but the original post was a bit patronising to us a proud capable people hence tylers response and one I was going to put but deceided not too.

Personally I feel having the US as our closet allies is better for us than not, our cultures and economy etc etc are linked even if a lot of us in the UK dont like all US policies most of us like US people.

[MoreWineII]

Your name calling is even sillier.

In fact, you might even say that someone who would come onto this thread and start insulting other folks is an even bigger scumbag than someone who discusses politics on it.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Your name calling is even sillier.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are but what am I?

Shall we continue so we can see who will get the last word?

What a joke.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
and neither does a flame war between the both of us.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you don't want flame wars, why do you go around starting them?

You call people "absolute and total scum" and act holier than thou, and tell us that we can't discuss politics about a political event. Where is your head?

ps - that was not a flame. I am truly curious about the logic of your statement.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]


Shall we continue so we can see who will get the last word?



[/ QUOTE ]

No thanks.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and neither does a flame war between the both of us.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you don't want flame wars, why do you go around starting them?

You call people "absolute and total scum" and act holier than thou, and tell us that we can't discuss politics about a political event. Where is your head?

ps - that was not a flame. I am truly curious about the logic of your statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

:sigh:

You know what?

You guys are right. Go ahead. I was completely wrong.
The seperation of church and state in the US really speaks to the heart of the matter here.

I can't believe I didn't see it before. Forgive me.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

But I don't think we're evil. Just ignorant about a lot of things and too arrogant to care.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is a pretty damning thing to say. If you can't be bothered to care about the consequences of your actions, I'd say that's pretty bad.

I don't think that America is evil, but I think America will frequently do things that large chunks of the world will view as evil, simply because there are many things that America does that are solely in its self-interest. You can say this about any nation, of course, but most are less influential and so piss off fewer numbers of people. America also does many good things. It's a big, complicated world out there.

I also think that sometimes people think that trying to understand why terrorist attacks happen and coming up with reasons for them is the same thing as justifying them. It's not.

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone doubt we are still fighting a war against terrorism, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, the UK, or the US?

Should we cut and run?

Should we surrender?

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is that investigations will reveal this is some radical muslim sect; the chief of whom once tried kim chi.

as a result, our president will declare war on North Korea unless they give up all kim chi used to nourish terrorists.

[MoreWineII]

Anyway, back to the discussion. You have to wonder what the logic is behind stuff like this.

Is anybody afraid of these freaks? Not really.

Does anybody think what they're doing in the name of Allah and country is admirable? No. Probably not even most of their countrymen.

Will they ever achieve whatever goal it is they have in mind with these actions? No. Unless the goal is to die a martyr which could possibly be the stupidest goal ever.

I guess if you're a [censored] bloodthirsty psycho who just likes to kill people in a cowardly manner, then it might make sense.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two reasons this thread shouldn't have been turned into a political debate.
I'll let you figure out what they are, although I somehow doubt you'll be able to.


[/ QUOTE ]

More sillyness. If you have an argument, make it.

Or would you rather play "I've got a secret...and I'm not telling." /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I expect you know your argument wouldn't stand up under scrutiny, so this was a smart move on your part. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[superleeds]

It's even sadder when older people do it

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

I expect you know your argument wouldn't stand up under scrutiny, so this was a smart move on your part. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep.

You got me.
I'm so ashamed...

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I guess if you're a [censored] bloodthirsty psycho who just likes to kill people in a cowardly manner, then it might make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been said before, but I don't see what's cowardly about strapping a bomb to yourself. It seems pretty much the opposite of cowardly, in fact.

I would imagine that terrorists choose the means they do because they obviously lack the resources to fight a conventional war, and thus it's pretty much the one tool that they have.

[chaas4747]

It is always cowardly to kill innocent lives and claim justification through a cause. If you want to fight a war attack a nation, not a group of civilans going to work.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

It's been said before, but I don't see what's cowardly about strapping a bomb to yourself. It seems pretty much the opposite of cowardly, in fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is it cowardly to walk up behind someone and sucker punch them in the face? I think it is. So do a lot of people.

That's the sense of cowardly that people use for these attacks that involve sneaking up on people and killing them.

eastbay

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
It is always cowardly to kill innocent lives and claim justification through a cause. If you want to fight a war attack a nation, not a group of civilans going to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an easy thing to say from the nation's side. It would be obvious suicide and would accomplish nothing on their part. To try and do such a thing (would you organize and schedule your battles, pre-18th century style?) would be sheer stupidity, and thus I don't see how it's cowardly to avoid certain defeat. This doesn't mean that it's ethically justifiable to kill random civilians, but I don't think I'd say it's cowardly; it's pretty much the only realistic way that they have of making themselves heard/feared.

[[censored]]

Wow, I just woke up to find this.

My heart goes out to our friends in the UK.

[JDErickson]

Just wanted to add my thoughts and prayers to our sisters and brothers in Britain.

:speechless:

[touchfaith]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I guess if you're a [censored] bloodthirsty psycho who just likes to kill people in a cowardly manner, then it might make sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been said before, but I don't see what's cowardly about strapping a bomb to yourself. It seems pretty much the opposite of cowardly, in fact.

I would imagine that terrorists choose the means they do because they obviously lack the resources to fight a conventional war, and thus it's pretty much the one tool that they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somebody get this guy on the no-fly list.

WTF are you talking about? They don't fight a 'conventional war' because they don't have a [censored] country to defend. Nothing about the idiots is conventional. They are dieing and killing people for no other reason then they don't like how the world works.

Too [censored] bad. They are more then [censored] welcome to pick out a sand dune and live any [censored] way they want, but they choose to blow themselves up...

You can't teach that kind of stupid.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
there are many things that America does that are solely in its self-interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's look at the Kyoto protocol for example. The U.S. produces twice as much green-house gases as Europe. It is the largest polluter in the world... but the U.S. put their economy before the overall benefits of protecting the enviroment for everyone. That's what I call selfish.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about? They don't fight a 'conventional war' because they don't have a [censored] country to defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

In several instances - Palestine and Chechnya come to mind - I think this is exactly why they're fighting in the first place.

[MoreWineII]

So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it only brave when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it just different when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying. I think these people are hardcore zealots who really believe so strongly in their cause that they are willing to sacrifice for it. While they're doing it in the service of a despicable act, I don't think that this is cowardly. You're welcome to disagree.

[wh1t3bread]

[ QUOTE ]


Let's look at the Kyoto protocol for example. The U.S. produces twice as much green-house gases as Europe. It is the largest polluter in the world... but the U.S. put their economy before the overall benefits of protecting the enviroment for everyone. That's what I call selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess what bothers me about your statements is that I get the impression that you believe that the US is selfish and always in the wrong and that the UK (or the rest of the world for that matter) is not. Wake up please.

[spamuell]

I agree with you gumpzilla both that they're not cowards and that searching for a reason for their actions is not justifying it.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it just different when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see where he said that at all.
All he said was "suicide", which is exactly what it is.

Personally, even though I disagreed with him very recently in this thread, I think his above post is fantastic.

Regardless of whether or not these people were actually "cowards" in the strictest sense, suicide bombings of civilian targets are definitely cowardly acts.
They probably don't see it that way, but that's the case.

Should we always make an effort to figure out why people do things like this? Of course! Nobody should be ignoring the whys of it all.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it just different when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying. I think these people are hardcore zealots who really believe so strongly in their cause that they are willing to sacrifice for it. While they're doing it in the service of a despicable act, I don't think that this is cowardly. You're welcome to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

The civilized world disagrees with you. Attacking people that are not in a position to defend themselves is the definition of cowardice.

And trying to rationalize, justify, or defend a terrorist act -- any terrorist act -- is what is despicable.

[Larimani]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it just different when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying. I think these people are hardcore zealots who really believe so strongly in their cause that they are willing to sacrifice for it. While they're doing it in the service of a despicable act, I don't think that this is cowardly. You're welcome to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean you gotta be pretty pissed off about something to be willing to strap yourselves with explosives and blow yourself up... think about that!

I mean, it's not like they doing it to have a blast... (sorry)

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see where he said that at all.
All he said was "suicide", which is exactly what it is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but it's massively oversimplifying, and it was pretty clear I think that he was referring to that more conventional type of suicide. Let's say we have a sniper take out bin Laden from afar at no risk to himself, and now look at a drive-by shooting instead. They're both murder. But they're pretty different things, no?

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
And trying to rationalize, justify, or defend a terrorist act -- any terrorist act -- is what is despicable.


[/ QUOTE ]

But trying to find reasons for the attack is not.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

And trying to rationalize, justify, or defend a terrorist act -- any terrorist act -- is what is despicable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. It's far better to just stick our heads in the sand and scream "Those ragheads are evil! EVIL!!!!!" over and over again instead of making any effort to understand why they do such things.

As I pointed out elsewhere, trying to understand why terrorists do what they do is a far, far different thing than commenting on its moral acceptability, and I think it's frankly bizarre that you don't seem to perceive the difference.

[Prepubescent no more]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> ^ ^
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[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that somewhat.

[ QUOTE ]
I think these people are hardcore zealots who really believe so strongly in their cause that they are willing to sacrifice for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that to a point. Sacrificing civilian lives isn't really their call though. And it accomplishes nothing, except make them look foolish.

[ QUOTE ]
While they're doing it in the service of a despicable act, I don't think that this is cowardly. You're welcome to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more of a brainwashing situation than it is some revolutionary thinkers out to advance some great cause. Anyway, killing people who are totally unrelated to your "cause" in order to advance said cause is the pinnacle of stupidity. They're either psychotic or supremely stupid...or both.

My point is that nobody knows what their ultimate goal is. I wonder if they themselves even do. And whatever that goal is, the way they are going about it is never going to being them closer to that goal.

It's a big [censored] waste of time is what it is. Unfortunately it's a waste of time that has cost so many people their lives.

[chaas4747]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So do you see suicide itself as a brave act? Or is it just different when you take hundreds of civilians with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the right thing to compare it to is an angst-ridden Goth slashing her wrists in the bathtub, if that's what you're saying. I think these people are hardcore zealots who really believe so strongly in their cause that they are willing to sacrifice for it. While they're doing it in the service of a despicable act, I don't think that this is cowardly. You're welcome to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

The monks that lit themselves on fire in Vietnam were trying to get their point across and call for some change. They did this in protest and were heard. This was brave, and guess what; they did not kill and civilians in the process.

Yes the fucks are cowards and I hope they rot in whatever hell they believe in.

[Wes ManTooth]

[ QUOTE ]


I mean, it's not like they doing it to have a blast... (sorry)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am convinced that you are 12 maybe 13 years old... and that is giving you credit.

[Larimani]

Look. We might have different opinions &amp; I respect yours. I ask you to respect mine as well.

Secondly, I think no topic is off-limit for humour. You might not like it but I'm not surpised...you sound like an uptight traditionalist/conservative.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

The monks that lit themselves on fire in Vietnam were trying to get their point across and call for some change. They did this in protest and were heard. This was brave, and guess what; they did not kill and civilians in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point. Those are certainly powerful images. But do you know if they were effective in creating real change? I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing they probably weren't, but obviously one can take a broad view of how one might effect change.

[chaas4747]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The monks that lit themselves on fire in Vietnam were trying to get their point across and call for some change. They did this in protest and were heard. This was brave, and guess what; they did not kill and civilians in the process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point. Those are certainly powerful images. But do you know if they were effective in creating real change? I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing they probably weren't, but obviously one can take a broad view of how one might effect change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, and I would assume you also, would like to see more peaceful types of change. If you want to kill yourself in protest that is your right, just don't kill people who have nothing to do with your cause. I really don't care to argue anymore. God Bless all of the people this is affecting in the UK.

[[censored]]

Katie Couric is such a [censored]-ing moron.

"I find it eiry that the first explosion was reported at 8:51AM and the first plane flown into the WTC was reported ...(she paused for effect) 8:46"

Christ doesn't she have a chief to interview or something.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And trying to rationalize, justify, or defend a terrorist act -- any terrorist act -- is what is despicable.


[/ QUOTE ]

But trying to find reasons for the attack is not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. Big difference between what I said and trying to understand why terrorism occurs.

[chaas4747]

[ QUOTE ]
Katie Couric is such a [censored]-ing moron.

"I find it eiry that the first explosion was reported at 8:51AM and the first plane flown into the WTC was reported ...(she paused for effect) 8:46"

Christ doesn't she have a chief to interview or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed get a real reporter in there to report on this.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Katie Couric is such a [censored]-ing moron.

"I find it eiry that the first explosion was reported at 8:51AM and the first plane flown into the WTC was reported ...(she paused for effect) 8:46"

Christ doesn't she have a chief to interview or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, those are both IN THE MORNING.

dumb.

[Shajen]

Davey,

Glad you, Partygirl, Vavavoom and others are ok.

This is such a sad day.

I am pleased at how well Londoners are handling themselves.

Keep on keepin on folks.

[Wes ManTooth]

"Look. We might have different opinions &amp; I respect yours. I ask you to respect mine as well.

Secondly, I think no topic is off-limit for humour. You might not like it but I'm not surpised...you sound like an uptight traditionalist/conservative."


I do respect your opinions as well as everyone's opinions equally. But to assume that I am uptight traditionalist because i don't share views like yours.

such as you said...


[ QUOTE ]

"How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak."


"I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil."


"I completely agree with you. American people are ignorant but the American governement is evil."


"The U.S. produces twice as much green-house gases as Europe. It is the largest polluter in the world... but the U.S. put their economy before the overall benefits of protecting the enviroment for everyone. That's what I call selfish."

[/ QUOTE ]

...oh I get it, I must be an uptight traditionalist because I don't hate the United States.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And trying to rationalize, justify, or defend a terrorist act -- any terrorist act -- is what is despicable.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. It's far better to just stick our heads in the sand and scream "Those ragheads are evil! EVIL!!!!!" over and over again instead of making any effort to understand why they do such things.

As I pointed out elsewhere, trying to understand why terrorists do what they do is a far, far different thing than commenting on its moral acceptability, and I think it's frankly bizarre that you don't seem to perceive the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you're the one that doesn't seem to comprehend the difference. If you will re-read my post, you will see that nowhere did I comment on the notion of trying to understand why terrorism occurs. This was purposeful, because I agree that trying to understand its causes is important.

There have been, unfortunately, posts that seem to try to rationalize and justify today's attack in London. In my opinion, by taking the position that such attacks are not "cowardly", you are justifying and rationalizing such attacks. I don't think you're intentionally trying to do so, and I don't mean to lump you in with some of the other posts that I've read, which are much worse.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, I think no topic is off-limit for humour

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with this, there is such a thing as "too soon".

It may not be off limits, but when you make a joke like that so soon after a tragedy, it's definitely in poor taste and isn't funny. It may have been funny (although I didn't think it was that great of a joke.. fairly lame) a few months down the line, but not the day of the event.

You must be new to the whole comedy thing.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Katie Couric is such a [censored]-ing moron.

"I find it eiry that the first explosion was reported at 8:51AM and the first plane flown into the WTC was reported ...(she paused for effect) 8:46"

Christ doesn't she have a chief to interview or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, wow that is incredibly dumb...ever for her.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, by taking the position that such attacks are not "cowardly", you are justifying and rationalizing such attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure? I can think of all manner of nasty, vicious things that are not cowardly. To say that such things are not cowardly in no way justifies them. As far as rationalizing, well, trying to understand reasons for actions is rationalizing, so sure, I'm doing that. You were aware that rationalizing ("to make rational; to interpret from a rational standpoint") means this, and thus you were in essence saying that trying to understand the terrorist attacks were despicable in your original post? Way to get your moral outrage going, though.

[Larimani]

It's the poor taste that makes it funny. It wouldn't have been funny 2 months down the line.

although I do agree it's not that funny but then again I'm not here to entertain you.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
"Look. We might have different opinions &amp; I respect yours. I ask you to respect mine as well.

Secondly, I think no topic is off-limit for humour. You might not like it but I'm not surpised...you sound like an uptight traditionalist/conservative."


I do respect your opinions as well as everyone's opinions equally. But to assume that I am uptight traditionalist because i don't share views like yours.

such as you said...


[ QUOTE ]

"How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak."


"I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil."


"I completely agree with you. American people are ignorant but the American governement is evil."


"The U.S. produces twice as much green-house gases as Europe. It is the largest polluter in the world... but the U.S. put their economy before the overall benefits of protecting the enviroment for everyone. That's what I call selfish."

[/ QUOTE ]

...oh I get it, I must be an uptight traditionalist because I don't hate the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow, he said all that. That's enough for me.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

It's the poor taste that makes it funny

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's too soon.
The poor taste, in this case, just makes you a jerk.

Trust me, I've made jokes and laughed at jokes that many people would find awful.
I'm all for nothing being off-limits.
But jokes are supposed to be funny.

For a number of reasons, yours isn't.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
U.S. law enforcement has just released a figure of 40 dead. What a horrible crime. Be strong, brothers.

Arab terrorism IMHO is based on envy of the power of the West. Arab culture dominated the world at a time when Europeans were still trying to get the mud out of their ears. However, Europe and the West took the knowledge the Arabs had (e.g. the zero concept, basis of higher math) and ran with it, building a culture far superior to that of the Arabs, while the Arabs stagnated. Now, rather than try to catch up, Arab (Islamic) terrorists would rather pull us down to the way things were 700 years ago, the time of their own glory. If the U.S. hadn't built the Saudi oil fields, they and their Wahabbi masters would still be burning camel dung for fuel this day.

I know this isn't a popular view among the Chomsky disciples here on the board, i.e. we deserve it for being such meanies to the poor, poor, Islamists.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a very naive point of view... How about this is in reply to the illegal war the US and the UK have initiated in Irak. Human cost 100,000 dead.

I do not condone terrorism as a way to achieve anything... but you need to open your eyes and try to understand the real reasons behind such atrocities. They are in reply to atrocities committed by the West.

[/ QUOTE ]

.....as many in the Middle East (and in the US &amp; Europe, for that matter) view the "West" as overly aggressive and hostile. Undoubtedly the "West" has done some horrible things and needs to answer for such things. How blowing up innocent people solves any of this is, however, is beyond me. Such action only will a) unfuriate the West further and strengthen their resolve and b) perpetuate the stereotype of Muslims as radical nut-jobs who care nothing about human life.

[[censored]]

Any thoughts on if/when/who as it pertains to a possible military response from The United Kingdom.

As of now it seems like Al Queda or an AL Queda type group is being blamed.

If so, is there anywhere that could even be a possible target?

Also how do the people of the UK feel in terms of this? Are they likely to demand action or would they be more likely to want to focus on prevention from an internal security standpoint?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
would they be more likely to want to focus on prevention from an internal security standpoint?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately in a free society there is not much that can be done if someone is willing to trade his/her life for yours.

[Felix_Nietsche]

The Saudi Arabians's stole their oil from the Americans (Aramco) by "nationalized" Aramco. Paying pennies on the dollar to the Americans. Now Saudi oil is financing terrorism accross the world.

1. A joint Anglo-American invasion of Saudi-Arabia to take the ALL the oil fields and keep the oil FOREVER will deprive the terrorist of their primary source of income.

2. Also without the oil the Saudi's will no longer be able to fund the Wahabi cult which preaches violence to Christians, Jews, and other non-muslim sects. The Wahabist are the primary source of evil in today's world.

3. Dismantle Saudi Arabia and partition it between its neighboring Arab neighbors. The oil fields will remain in Anglo-American hands.

4. Britain (annd other Western nations as well) needs to STOP all immigration from muslim nations. Muslims, on the whole, make poor citizens. In the USA we think we have an immigration problem but it is not nearly as bad as the Brits. Let them remain in their ****hole countries.

Of course no one has the balls to do this. it won't be until a nuke explodes in a major city (made in Pakistan or North Korea) that people will call for drastic action. I say why wait. Lets take the terrorists most precious resource.

[Vavavoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Davey,

Glad you, Partygirl, Vavavoom and others are ok.

This is such a sad day.

I am pleased at how well Londoners are handling themselves.

Keep on keepin on folks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shajen and to all the others on here who have posted warm messages....Many thanks....

Today, has made me realise something....

Its a very stressful, worrying and disturbing society that we live in. I'm appreciate the warm messages on this post as I admire the way Londoners are handling themselves also...

My condolences go out to all those affected by the attacks today...I was overwhelmed by messages and calls by people (friends/people I've encountered over the past 23yrs of my life)...I must have had 25 emails at work and 50 text messages to my phone not to mention countless phonecalls....

I always (albeit very morbid) wondered whether people whom I do not talk to on a day to day basis really ever thought about me....Today, has shown me that they do....and for that I'm thankful that I live in a society that has people with such compassion. It just shows that albeit for a minority who have values different to ours, that the human spirit will never be broken.

I remember watching the towers come down with a lump in my thraot. I was working in Ibiza as a holiday rep...Only myself and my boss were watching it in a small cafe nr the beach....We watched as people raced about in a blind panic...Yet amongst those people were true heroes who risked their lives to help others....Now don't get me wrong, todays disaster was not on the same scale as 9/11...Still a horrible, world changing event, But I think many Londoners, and people living in Britain as a whole will be drawing strength from the way the U.S portrayed themselves after 9/11...

I admired the americans then, the people in Bali 2 yrs ago and the spanish last year....

We done it back in 1939 vs the Nazi onslaught.....our resolve is not to be broken and for that reason is why I'm proud to be British, and a Londoner......And I'm thankful for being alive as it could have been a much bigger dirty bomb(s)....

[AngryCola]

Wow.

I'm pretty sure that's the only response I can give to that.
From everything you have ever posted, it's a damn good thing you'll never be in a position of power.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
I do blame it on the US. The U.S. is the direct/indirect cause of most misery on earth. The incarnation of evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right?

~D