2/5 120BB TPTK; Stole this one from the TV box

[fimbulwinter]

I've been playing very fast. villain is pretty good, but has weak/tight problems.

villain covers me, i have 600 and AsKd

Villain opens in mp to $30, folded to me on BB, I call.

Ad6c5c

I check to him, he bets 60, i push for $510 more

fim

[jkkkk]

Ok, kind of obvious..

Your very possibly getting AK to fold and other hands you beat, does he open with a small PP in MP?

If so this move is just plain stupid, if not then I still don't like the odd's he isn't holding AA. Obviously more times than not your going to take down this pot uncontested, but is it really worth it?

I think there are cheaper ways to get away from a set here, not 100% sure if stealing from AK makes this good.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing very fast. villain is pretty good, but has weak/tight problems.

villain covers me, i have 600 and AsKd

Villain opens in mp to $30, folded to me on BB, I call.

Ad6c5c

I check to him, he bets 60, i push for $510 more

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad. He will call with a set and exactly AcKc, and fold everything else. You're essentially putting a call option on your stack--i.e, this move works every time but once, when you get freerolled and lose big. No good.

The Doc

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
but has weak/tight problems.



[/ QUOTE ]

"therefore, i decided putting villain to a decision for 110 BB in a 25BB pot would be the best way to get action from him. FWIW all i have is TPTK, and i am trying to represent a draw. "

huh?

[MarkL444]

i dont like this line.

you say he's weak/tight, what does that mean he's calling with? not very much. imo this play would be better against a loose idiot who may call with AQ, etc. i would also much prefer to have a club in my hand.

this is a drawish board. if you check call this flop he can't put you specifically on an ace. ESPECIALLY AK.

[edge]

Ok, I'm going to kind of disagree with everyone else here. If he has a set, you're going broke anyway, so this line knocks out a split. He's not going to put in any more money with KK or weaker, and it may not be too likely that he's holding AQ.

[soah]

I think one of the most important aspects of the hand is that it's very unlikely that fim does not hold the best hand (or a chop). If the flop is AQ9 that's no longer true.

[fimbulwinter]

so nobody sees this as a high-variance, big +EV value bet? that's what i thought it was.

fim

[soah]

Your read is far too vague for us to make that determination. Somewhere recently I read a nice quote... "weak players always belive that you have it." If this guy is too scared to put all his chips in without a monster then there's not much value here. Except to steal half of a split pot sometimes.

But if that's not what you meant by weak-tight then it's different. If he'll put you on a draw and call with an ace then great... but when you give us one hand in a vacuum we can't really figure out those types of things.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
so nobody sees this as a high-variance, big +EV value bet? that's what i thought it was.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the important point about him being w/t is that you aren't going to make a lot off him with a normal line. Let's say that on average you make another 100 off him with a more normal line. Well, he only needs to call the 500 overbet 20% of the time for it to be breakeven. You've been playing very fast. You know that he's w/t which probably means he has made folds to you in the past (or at least to other people often) so he may think you're just trying to run him over. The board is draw heavy. Will he call 1/5? I don't know, but I definitely think it's close.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so nobody sees this as a high-variance, big +EV value bet? that's what i thought it was.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the important point about him being w/t is that you aren't going to make a lot off him with a normal line. Let's say that on average you make another 100 off him with a more normal line. Well, he only needs to call the 500 overbet 20% of the time for it to be breakeven. You've been playing very fast. You know that he's w/t which probably means he has made folds to you in the past (or at least to other people often) so he may think you're just trying to run him over. The board is draw heavy. Will he call 1/5? I don't know, but I definitely think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

this, combined with the fact that about 1/2 the deck totally kills my action, was exactly what was going through my head.

fim

[xorbie]

I'm thinking there's a pretty reasonable chance this guy calls with AQ/AJ. This is really the perfect board to do it, because it's just so obviously draw heavy, draws which the PF raiser will almost never have (and he will almost never have better than one pair either), but draws which fim could very easily have and sets which he could be trying to represent. If fim has been playing fast, and this guy can think third/fourth level, then I think he's quite capable of making a "big call" here with AQ/AJ.

And if not, then he folds AK and we win the split pot (or we are possibly even being freerolled).

[TheWorstPlayer]

I think this actually has the awesome potential of being similar to a previous hand posted by Fim (the anti-draw) where the guy calls with TT here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
so nobody sees this as a high-variance, big +EV value bet? that's what i thought it was.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line is getting freerolled sucks. You say he's w/t. So when he has a big AX, half the time its with the Ac, and if he also has AK 1/6th of the time you're looking at exactly AcKc. I also think hands like AQ and AJ find a fold here, unless they have the flush draw.

I don't see the point of this line. I thought the typical line in this spot is to play for a medium small potin almost a call-down fashion.

THe Doc

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
so nobody sees this as a high-variance, big +EV value bet? that's what i thought it was.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

against a different player yes, but i do not think a "weak tight" calls with many hands you want him to. (AcKx would suck ass) I do think your fold equity if very high.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing very fast. villain is pretty good, but has weak/tight problems.

villain covers me, i have 600 and AsKd

Villain opens in mp to $30, folded to me on BB, I call.

Ad6c5c

I check to him, he bets 60, i push for $510 more

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad. He will call with a set and exactly AcKc, and fold everything else. You're essentially putting a call option on your stack--i.e, this move works every time but once, when you get freerolled and lose big. No good.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he will call here with AcKc, but not AcQc or AcJc?

[xorbie]

My thoughts exactly.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing very fast. villain is pretty good, but has weak/tight problems.

villain covers me, i have 600 and AsKd

Villain opens in mp to $30, folded to me on BB, I call.

Ad6c5c

I check to him, he bets 60, i push for $510 more

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad. He will call with a set and exactly AcKc, and fold everything else. You're essentially putting a call option on your stack--i.e, this move works every time but once, when you get freerolled and lose big. No good.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think he will call here with AcKc, but not AcQc or AcJc?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he will, but fold Ax without the flush draw. Besdies, AcQc or AcJc is a 53:46 dog to AK without clubs. If he's got the pair + the draw, he must call.

The Doc

[soah]

Meh, I wasn't considering that those hands could win by spiking their kicker. So other than variance, fim doesn't care much whether they call. There's about the right amount of dead money in the pot to make their call neutral EV.

[xorbie]

Well, fim is a favorite anyway, so it's +EV especially with the dead money. It's also, IMO, a good way to play the hand because considering fim is pretty aggro he might decide to bluff a flush into the nuts, and probably won't get much out of AQ/AJ/images/graemlins/club.gif if the flush misses on the turn.

[JaBlue]

If by "he's having weak tight problems" and "I am playing very fast" you mean "he's getting ready to make a stand," I like your line a lot. That is, as long as you would do it with a draw too. Sure he could have AA or AxC but that's not really going to be happening all that often.

Anyway, if you think he'll call with a hand like AQ here, I like it. Or conversely if you think he'll fold AK (no clubs), I like it. If neither of these are the case, then I don't understand your play.