Rivered by a fish? (2 hands)

[pudley4]

2-4 at Canterbury. Guy to my left is very loose preflop. He will bet postflop, but I don't recall seeing him raise anyone postflop.

Hand 1: 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif in MP. 1 limper, I limp, fish limps, LP limps, button limps, sb completes, BB checks. 7 to the flop for 7 sb.

Flop: A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

Checked to me I bet, fish calls, LP calls, button calls. 4 to the turn for 11 sb.

Turn: 7 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I bet, BB calls, LP calls. 3 to the river for 8 BB.

River: 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I bet, fish raises, LP folds. Raise, call, fold?

************************************************** ****

Hand 2: 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif in SB. 4 limpers, I complete, BB (fish) checks. 6 to the flop for 6 sb.

Flop: K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

I check, BB bets, 3 callers. I call (good or bad?) 5 to the turn for 11 sb.

Turn: 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I check, BB bets, 2 callers, I checkraise, all 3 call. 4 to the river for 13 BB.

River: 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

I bet, BB raises, everyone folds. Raise, call, fold?

[Homer]

Hand 1

Preflop: Fold unless the table is extremely passive (i.e. - you can't remember the last time there was a preflop raise).

Flop: I would check-call, though I suppose one could make an argument for betting after three players checked to you.

Turn: I would definitely check-call here. Your bet is not going to cause all three remaining opponents to fold and you are on a draw that is 4.75:1 against hitting on the river (and could be worse if a flush draw is out there). Plus, your bet might get raised, so you could be causing yourself to have to spend two big bets to see the river.

River: Call the river raise. You probably lost to a flush, but you don't have to be good here very often for a call to be correct.

Hand 2

Preflop: I would have folded. 11:1 isn't enough for me to want to play this junk.

Flop: You have an easy call getting 11:1. You only need 7:1 or 8:1 to make this call.

Turn: Good checkraise.

River: Call the raise. You probably lost to the flush (again), but you don't have to win very often for the call to be correct.

-- Homer

[mobes]

I would've folded both, but I would call the raise on hand 1.

[lil']

Let me take a stab at this...

Hand 1: At this level, you betting the turn isn't going to accomplish anything. You don't have the best hand by a long shot at this point, and you also run the risk of getting raised if someone has a raggedy two pair or a seven. I would check and call to see the river as cheaply as you can. Don't forget, 2 of your outs may not be clean. On the river, you gotta bet and then call the raise. Sometimes people raise weird stuff on the river, especially poor players.

Hand 2: 8-6o, bleh. Fold. But since you didn't...
I believe you need 11:1 odds to call on the flop to chase that gutshot, and you don't have it, and the fact that there is a flush draw out there is more reason to fold. The turn and river are fine, and you gotta call that river, same as the first hand.

Hope I helped...

[Homer]

I didn't notice the flush draw on the flop. You need 11:1 to call the flop bet instead of the 7:1 or 8:1 required with no flush draw on board....

-- Homer

[lil']

Homer,

You only need 7:1 to 8:1 odds to go for a gutshot draw?? I thought you needed more than that.

BTW, I'm watching Homer on TV right now...

[Homer]

If you ignore implied odds then you need 10.5:1 (4 out of 46 unseen cards will complete the straight), but with implied odds you only need around 8:1 to call...

-- Homer

[Ed Miller]

In hand 1, the limp is very marginal in many games, but it looks like it was ok in the game you were in. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif You will probably lose, but I don't think you can lay down your straight here... he has no reason to think you have anything better than an Ace.

In hand 2, I think the call from the SB is fine, despite what others are saying. The flop call is right on the edge... I think it's ok because you close the action and will likely be able to checkraise the field on the turn if your miracle comes.

[Bob T.]

I call with both hands, unless I am absolutely sure that my opponent will not raise the river without at least a flush.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[pudley4]

Hand 1:

I called and said "show me the flush"

He shows 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

Does this change your answer for Hand 2?

[Homer]

No, I still say call.

Glad you won the first hand...

-- Homer

[pudley4]

After hand 1 I clearly could not fold. I considered raising, but decided to just call.

He showed J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Oh well, 1 for 2 isn't bad.

[cferejohn]

In point of fact, 1 for 2 is great. If you win half the hands you make this decision for (fold/call the river), you are almost certainly not calling enough.

[Bob T.]

1 for 2 with a flush on the board, is great. On both hands, if you raised, you probably would have gotten called, and so you would have broke even on your river bets. If you raise the first hand, your opponent, might have folded, so you would have actually lost on your river bets. The other way to lose, would be if your opponent reraised when he did have a flush, and you decided that you needed to call. With scary boards, it is usually better to just call a raise, and get to the showdown, unless you have a very scary hand yourself.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.