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View Full Version : Stagnating? Trying to figure out how to improve? (longish)


Quercus
07-07-2005, 12:11 AM
In my database, I have 100,000 hands of full ring games. Limits from 0.5/1.0 to 2/4. I'm a decent sized winner at each limit (2-3BB/100) just by playing ABC poker.

I've read TOP, SSHE, HPFAP (and a few others). I was a regular reader and contributor to this forum and yet, I never seemed to feel like my game was improving. I was stuck and didn't really know how to improve.

So, I decided to change some things around. First, I started playing shorthand poker. I crushed the 0.5/1.0 game on Absolute for 10,000 hands and then started working on the 1/2 game on Party. 25,000 hands later, I felt like my blinds play, aggression and preflop hand selection were all vastly improved. It was the first jump in my game that I felt I'd attained in quite some time.

While there is a lot to like about SH play, there are some things I don't like. First, the variance is an unholy nightmare. You play a lot more hands and are in a lot more pots with marginal holdings. You can win or lose a lot in a hurry. Nothing like starting a session with a 70BB downswing in the first hour. Of course, nothing like starting a session with a 70BB upswing in the first hour either.

The second thing I don't like about shorthand is the pace. Multitabling takes an enormous amount of concentration and stamina and though is very nice for rakeback, the constant decision making can be physically tiring after a remarkably short period of time. Tired play leads to mistakes which leads to bad decisions, which is the bane of a good winrate.

From shorthand, I decided to dip my toe into the NL waters with something akin to Ed Millers shortstack strategy. For those unfamiliar with it, its a relatively lowrisk way to start off in NL poker. Its hard to generate a high winrate with it, but its hard to loose much (if anything) for a neophyte. I played about 10,000 hands or so of NL and realized that the edge a decent player has against a poor player is much greater there than in limit. Mistakes in limit take a long time to drain a bankroll. In NL, a bankroll can be drained with just a few bad decisions.

Because you can win or lose so much more in NL than in limit, it taught me how to slow down and actually think through situations. If you like money, your ability to read situations, hands, and opponents will improve greatly.

Mixed in with my NL play I've stared playing a fair amount of the Party $10+1 single table NL tournaments. One thing that I really like about these is that they utilize skills I've picked up in each game I've learned. In limit, I learned the basics of ABC poker, hand values, etc. SNGs go shorthanded, and the SH experience about controlled agression has been invaluable. The stop off in regular NL helped me better understand the value of starting hands, pot management, and aggression.

For a long time, I resisted moving out of regular 10max ring games. I wanted to feel like I'd "mastered" a game (defined as 3BB/100 winrate over a large number of hands) before trying to add something to the mix. What I've learned though is that its entirely likely that I could have played another million hands and not seen a significant improvement in my game. For me, I need to get some time in the other hold'em variants to break through some barriers.

If you feel stuck in a rut, moving to other games might be just the thing to help break out.

econ_tim
07-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Enjoyed reading your post.

Nice to hear about someone else's progession through stakes and games. And how full-ring, shorthanded, NL, and SNG's are all related.

jmgurgeh
07-07-2005, 10:48 PM
I've actually thought that playing 6-max has been great for my overall skill level. I've already been playing SnGs on Stars for a while, but NL cash games scare me a bit. I think you're not only right about stagnation, but I think learning to play these formats well is necessary to become a good player. I've actually been thinking about Omaha and stud lately, and when I should start trying to learn them well enough to play regularly.

What do you think helped you the most in NL though? Just experience, or did you read a particular book for help?

Marquis
07-07-2005, 11:29 PM
Quercus,
Nice post. I've always thought your hand analysis was great and have valued your opinions. You are certainly an excellent player and an asset to these forums. You should try some live games and tournaments if you haven't yet. I dig what you're saying about how playing one variant helps you become a better player on another, and playing live games adds even more to that.
Rock on.

droolie
07-07-2005, 11:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
For me, I need to get some time in the other hold'em variants to break through some barriers.



[/ QUOTE ]

You playin' Razz now or what?

Quercus
07-08-2005, 12:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think helped you the most in NL though? Just experience, or did you read a particular book for help?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd played enough cheapie tournaments to have the basics of NL down. From there, I just read through the small stakes NL forum a bit and came across a posting about Ed Miller's "small stack" strategy, which outlined the basics. Its fairly intuitive - you want a tiny stack to deny implied odds to anyone trying to draw out on you. You basically just nut peddle and try to double up and then move on.

I did that for a few thousands hands, and then stopped pulling off the table once I doubled up, which was a fairly low risk way to learn how to play. THe 25NL games on party are pretty soft, so you don't need any great skills to survive them. If you are a decent poker player, you should do just fine after a few sessions.

Quercus
07-08-2005, 12:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You should try some live games and tournaments if you haven't yet. I dig what you're saying about how playing one variant helps you become a better player on another, and playing live games adds even more to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I run out to Lake Charles every once in a while for some 3-6-12 LHE. The players are awful, but the $5 rake + $1 jackpot + dealer toke just suck a lot of the profits out of it.

You're right though about live play added to you overall skills. Live play is SO much more passive than online play and reads are SO much more easy. The bad news is that you only get 30-35 hands an hour. The good news though is that it is much easier to evaluate your play on each hand. I caught a lot of errors I was making just because I had time to review the play.

I've been playing more multi-table tournaments recently. Empire runs two $500 freerolls a day that just require 50 raked hands to qualify for. That's about, what, 4.5 minutes of 6 max? The payouts are low, but they usually aren't too crowded.

I think my early tournament game is pretty good and my late game seems ok. I get bogged down in the middle and have trouble accumulating chips. (As I type this, some joker just called my 180 bet with QQ then a shortstack went all-in got 570. I pushed my 900 chips in and the joker called. Shortstack turns over QTo, and joker turns over.... 54o. *boggle*)

They can be fun, though my wife makes fun of my for playing 3 hours only to miss the money by 10 places and get nada.

Quercus
07-08-2005, 12:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]

You playin' Razz now or what?


[/ QUOTE ]

They have that over at Full Tilt now. I've been very tempted...

I did play a bit of O8 on PP the other night. Kind of a neat game, but really slow paced. People tell me that the games are soft and the variance is low, so maybe I'll tkae a more serious look at it one day.