why do I even bother against the simpletons??

[Mikey]

I raise with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in early position, i'm called by one other person.

This person just wants to play. He's nervous and I don't classify him as a knowlegable player at all, but i do have respect for him as a pokerplayer and as a person. I don't look down on him but I can see that there is a far gap between my knowledge of the game and his knowledge of the game.
Examples include
a)he picks up his cards way too high off the table
b)he has his money all over the place
-I hope you get the picture now of the type of player I'm talking about.

anyhow the flop comes

A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I bet and he raises without a flinch.

STOP RIGHT THERE!!


Think about this... he's raising me, when he knows that I could possibly have an Ace, a big Ace none the less. But if he just had an Ace by itself this type of calliber opponnent won't raise the flop, they'll call you down, I know this because I've experienced it many many times. He raised my flop bet and I'm thinking...why would you raise me here, you can't possibly have a draw, you must have at least 2 pair to raise me.

All of this thinking has gone on after the hand but now let me take to you what was going through my mind during the hand.............

I put him on an Ace, maybe AK as well, maybe AQ he's not going to reraise with any of these hands, because he just doesn't know that reraising is the play.

So now during the actual hand I'm thinking ohh good, he just has an ACE, im going to call his raise here and check raise the turn, although frequently i reraise the flop to tie him into the hand.

on the turn falls a 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I'm thinking ohh boy, here it comes, I check and he doesn't disappoint me and bets, I raise and he calls.

On the river falls a blank.

I bet he calls.

I show down AK for top pair top kicker

He shows me a small set of 4's.

-my question is this, what should you do when you flop this type of hand and are raised on this type of flop by a person who can't possibly be bluffing.

Do you think that folding has -EV in this spot against this type of opponnent or do I continue the hand through...and take my chances.

[Ed S.]

When you have such a read on a person that you know for a fact that they are that str8 forward and that they wouldn't be tricky at all. Coupled with the fact that you are so certain that this player is not capable of re-rasing with AQ or AK and that your sure he has atleast a two pair. I would tend to fold that in most situations. The way that you describe it I would try and conserve my chips to fight a battle thats more worthy of keeping someone in the pot.

Just a few thoughts of mine.

Ed S.

[Bob T.]

Mikey,

Just keep playing, be wary of his raises in the future, and remember that he probably won't get full value from you on the hands that he is going to win. Maybe you also didn't give him enough credit. You open raised, and he called, and then you bet the flop, and he raised, he must have been thinking that he was telling you that a pair of Aces was no good, and then you checkraise him, telling him that you have better than a pair of Aces. But he knows better than to fold a set, so he called you down.

You however, were having a different conversation, you bet, because you open raised, he raises because he has an Ace, and you tell him that you have a Good Ace, and he calls because that is what he does.

Who did play better, you or him? He was playing weak loose, but you ignored what he was telling you in his frame of reference.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[JTG51]

I put him on an Ace, maybe AK as well, maybe AQ he's not going to reraise with any of these hands, because he just doesn't know that reraising is the play.

I might have misunderstood this a little bit. When you say reraise, are you saying he won't 4 bet the flop with AQ if you 3 bet it? Do you think you should be reraising a preflop raiser with AQ and an A on the board?

my question is this, what should you do when you flop this type of hand and are raised on this type of flop by a person who can't possibly be bluffing.

You definitely should not be folding. I think most opponents will have an AQ-AT type of hand, not a set. So many players will wait till the turn to raise sets, I usually assume top pair or flush draw when I'm raised on the flop.

[bad beetz]

occasionally you will be able to fold top pair/top kicker for one extra bet on the flop, but you will have to be against a mega weak/tight prototype of a player, and don't ever let anybody see you do it.

[pufferfish]

You definitely should not be folding. I think most opponents will have an AQ-AT type of hand, not a set. So many players will wait till the turn to raise sets, I usually assume top pair or flush draw when I'm raised on the flop.

These assumptions may not be valid for an "unknowledgeable" player, as he was described.

Will a novice raise a flush draw, or top pair against the pre-flop raiser?
The novice may have been thinking "I could have this guy beat; I better get my money into the pot."

This hand screams Aces up, a small set or maybe even the wheel.

If you look at his play, even if weak, it's very straight forward. I have a hand and I'm gonna bet it.

I'm not saying to fold, but I'd be very wary.

[Robk]

"I'm not saying to fold, but I'd be very wary. "

I am saying to fold. Toss your cards quickly and casually into the muck and say "that's the last pot I try to win with 77." You obviously have the read on this guy, so act on it. The beauty of playing against weaktightness is that you get to save these bets against him. That's your flop and both of you know it. When he raises you're dead.

[pufferfish]

I am saying to fold.

That would depend on how many hands I'd seen him play.

It's one thing to peg someone as "unknowledgeable" because of the way they pick up their cards or handle their stack.

It's another to have that verified in play. If it's the first hand (especially HU) then I'm gonna call him down.

[cferejohn]

I think this is an easy fold. I put him on a set or two pair. I certainly don't checkraise on the turn in this situation since he is very unlikely to fold. If the player is as inexperienced as you describe, he might not even be terribly cognizant of the idea of 'kickers'. He's just going to be thinking about the order of poker hands. "I have a pair of aces, that is a pretty good hand, I will call anything." "I have two pair/three of a kind, wow! I'm going to raise!".

Again, if the player is as you describe, that's the level of sophistication I suspect you are dealing with. I would say you can expect these players to:

1. Call a bet with nearly any pair, but not raise with any single pair.
2. Raise nearly any 2 pair or three of a kind, regardless of scary straight/flush hands on the board (4 of a suit may be an exception).
3. This person will NEVER bet an unmade straight or flush for value/as a semi-bluff.

Therefore, if this person is raising you (especially as quickly and confidently as you describe) when you have top pair/top kicker, I think you need to assume you are beaten right now and throw the hand away unless you have a good draw (which you did not on the flop).

[bernie]

"I think most opponents will have an AQ-AT type of hand, not a set. So many players will wait till the turn to raise sets, I usually assume top pair or flush draw when I'm raised on the flop."

the description of the player in question...he's not betting a draw here, and he isnt betting top pair, marginal kicker...

AQ may be the least hand hell hold...but remember, he also said this player raised without a flinch....he had a very nice read on this player/ this player isnt a tricky player, and he doesnt bet draws....

with a read that strong, this is foldable on the flop. however, if unsure, then id call it down....

some ideas...

b

[Mikey]

I understand what you are trying to say, but often times they won't raise with a set on the flop, they will call the flop bet and then raise the turn if they are that confident, but once he raises the flop without a flinch....you could be sure, you aren't facing a naked ace.


The only problem i have in this hand is how to get my cards into the muck without any chance at all of them being exposed.

[JTG51]

I guess this reply goes to everyone who said fold.

Maybe I missed it in the original post, but I never saw where this guy was super passive. You said he picked up his cards high and kept his money in messy piles. I don't get how that makes him so passive that he's only capable of raising a hand better than top pair, top kicker on the flop.

One of the best players I know doesn't stack his chips. He just piles them in front of him. I don't think there's a lot of information to be gained from messy chips.

If you think this was an easy fold, there must have been a little more to the read than what you wrote, or I just didn't understand something. I'm not sure how anyone else thinks it's an easy fold.

I always thought the games I play in are very passive. I guess not, because I see poor, inexperienced, nervous players raise top pair with a decent kicker all the time on the flop.

[JTG51]

the description of the player in question...he's not betting a draw here, and he isnt betting top pair, marginal kicker...

Why? Everyone else must be getting more out of the original post than I did. Where did Mikey say anything that makes you think the player won't raise a hand worse than top pair top kicker? Because he looks nervous? Because his chips are messy? I don't get it.

I have a feeling the replies would be much different if Mikey hadn't included the results in the original post.

[JTG51]

If the player is as inexperienced as you describe, he might not even be terribly cognizant of the idea of 'kickers'. He's just going to be thinking about the order of poker hands. "I have a pair of aces, that is a pretty good hand, I will call anything."

How about if he's not terribly cognizant of the idea of kickers and thinks, "I have a pair of aces, that is a pretty good hand, I will raise."

I know a lot of very bad, some very inexperienced players that raise too much. Some of them even look nervous.

Also note if the player has top and bottom pair MIkey would be making a mistake folding. He's got 6 outs now and is almost sure to pick up 3 more on the turn. If the turn card is a spade above the 3, he picks up 12 outs.

[bernie]

"Think about this... he's raising me, when he knows that I could possibly have an Ace, a big Ace none the less. But if he just had an Ace by itself this type of calliber opponnent won't raise the flop, they'll call you down, I know this because I've experienced it many many times. He raised my flop bet and I'm thinking...why would you raise me here, you can't possibly have a draw, you must have at least 2 pair to raise me."

this is his statement based on his read of the player from previous hands...he knows this player better than i do, since i wasnt there....so ill give him credit.

has nothing to do with the results...

b

[Robk]

Hey JTG, I think a lot of posters who said to fold (myself included) read more into the original post than was there. We have all played against the stereotypical weak passive player and assumed that was who Mikey was talking about, even though he didn't explicitly state it. As Mikey noted, this type of player will not raise the flop with a big ace (except maybe AK), but call you down instead, making a fold the correct play.

[Dynasty]

I agree with JTG51's general analysis. The two key descriptions Mikey gave of this opponent give us no reason to believe this opponent has AK beat.

b)he has his money all over the place

This was the information which stood out the most. The last thing you should think about this player is that he is weak-tight. Here's an excerpt from Caro's Book of Tells from page 58.

...haphazardly stacked chips usually mean careless play. This player's game will probably be too liberal, but he might get good value from his big hands by playing aggressively. There's a good chance this man is prepared to lose all those chips, and often he will.

Best Strategy: Call more often when he bets. Bluff him less frequently than other players.

It's ironic that most posters in this thread came to the opposite conlcusion than what the tell usually means.

a)he picks up his cards way too high off the table

This usually means the player has poor eyesight or is simply unfamilar with a good tecnique to look at his cards. I don't think it tells you anything about his looseness, tightness, aggressiveness, or passiveness.

Here's another of Mikey's comments: he knows that I could possibly have an Ace, a big Ace none the less. But if he just had an Ace by itself this type of calliber opponnent won't raise the flop, they'll call you down

The tell information Mikey gave us actually suggests the exact opposite. This is a player who will make loose calls with A8o and then raise when he flops a pair.

Also, he's described the opponent as not being very knowledgeable yet at the same time wants to believe this opponent is reading hands. This is a major conflict in Mikey's thinking of the hand. You can't think your opponent is a "simpleton" and also have him putting you on a reasonable range of hands and playing apporpiately based on that read.

I know this because I've experienced it many many times.

A truly bad reason to believe something. We've all seen AA lose many, many times after raising pre-flop. Are we supposed to conclude there's a correlation between those two events?

[Mikey]

Dynasty.....i have experienced this many times and I'm sure you have too.....

You raise with QQ preflop get called by this type of opponnnent I'm describing.... the hand is now heads up.

Flop comes A 5 8.

You bet and he calls
Turn x
You bet and he calls
River x
You check. He bets. Now you think he could be betting anything since he didn't raise your flop bet... nore did he raise the turn bet, you decide to call.

He shows you A3o.

What about when I said he raised without a flinch, often times they aren't going to be raising this fast unless they have something bigger than an Ace.

"Also, he's described the opponent as not being very knowledgeable yet at the same time wants to believe this opponent is reading hands."

-here is a perfect example.....of why he is a simpleton...and this hand occured shortly after the hand he and I played, i'm on the button with 22. a few limpers limp and I call..he's in the BB, The flop comes 333. it gets checked to me, I bet and (simpleton) calls everyone else drops, turn is a Q, He checks I bet he calls on the river falls an 8. He checks, I bet and he calls. He shows down a pocket pair of 88 for a rivered set. He was ahead the whole way, plus, he beats everything except for the 4th three with the rivered set. Where were his bets? Where were his raises? Do you think that he was trying to read hands here? I think so....because....he thought I could have the 4th 3.
PLUS.......a conversation broke out with him and the man sitting to his left...
At the showdown, the (simpleton) says "ohh wow, if he had Queen he wins"
The guy on the left said, "Excuse me, you have 8's full, how the hell does a Queen beat you."
The (simpleton) just put his head down and didn't say anything because he was embarrased because he wasn't knowledgable.


when I first started playing hold'em I wasn't knowledgeable at all (calling raises when i shouldn't have, raising with hands I should be folding, calling too much, checkraising at the wrong times, pushing Kings really hard on an Ace High board).....but I'll tell you something I was always trying to read hands....


(as far as his chips being out of order, picking up his cards to high).....I'm trying to paint a picture of the type of opponnent I was up against, who is basically a person who doesn't play the game often at all.

(simpleton)- my definition of a simpleton may differ from others. I do have respect for my opponnents even though I previously may have called them mutts, idiots, etc, because anyone can pick up 2 cards and win.

My definition of a simpleton person is one...who raises with good to extremely good hands....and will reraise only when they have the nuts. I don't mean to use it as if I'm looking down at anyone, because I have respect for everyone.


"next time I put up a post I'm going to think it through; either that or i should take some of my poker winnings and take a course in writing because I can't write for SH@*.

[Dynasty]

What about when I said he raised without a flinch, often times they aren't going to be raising this fast unless they have something bigger than an Ace.

You should be more inclined to believe he can beat AK if he did flinch or shake. Those would be better tell indicators of him holding a big hand. Here's another excerpt from Caro's Book fo Tells from page 79.

The shaking is uncontrolable. Remember, it's a release of tension, not fear, that makes this player shake as he bets. Players who are bluffing try to bolster tehmselves. They are frequently rigid. They don't allow themselves to shake.

Best Strategy (when they shake): Pass (fold), unless you also hold something thrilling.

I don't think his raise without a flinch is a tell of a strong hand.

BTW, you need to start betting your QQ in those types of hands. It's a TOP thing. They will call with many worse hands but they won't bet with the same worse hands. It's far worse to check and call in that spot than it is to raise.

[Billy LTL]

he has his money all over the place

Unrelated to anything else in your post but the above line, I get a kick out of having a big old messy pile of chips in front of me sometimes.

Opponents can't stop looking at it. I sense the untidiness of it all makes them feel uncomfortable. I doubt that affects the game very much if at all. I'm just easily amused.

That's all. Billy.

[Robk]

Mikey obviously had a better line on this guy's play than a stupid "how he stacks his chips" tell was going to give him.

"This player's game will probably be too liberal, but he might get good value from his big hands by playing aggressively. "

He really got good value from this big hand by playing aggressively LOL

[bernie]

i dont give much credit to how a player has his chips stacked and such...so this player has them all over the place. his play will confirm whether he plays loose as he stacks his chips...i take more into consideration events during the hand than the explanation of how the player 'appears' prior to the hand...

"I don't think his raise without a flinch is a tell of a strong hand."

maybe for this player...it is

i think he read the situation right....his analysis was right for this player. why? because he was there and had a 'feel' for the players play. hence when the guy bets and doesnt flinch, this is an indication of an unusual bet pattern for this player that the poster caught on to. AND correctly read it.

to say this is an unreliable tell is ridiculous. youre taking caro too literally. in that book and video, he also states the tells can be reversed depending on the players....some will flinch, 'releasing tension', and some wont. they may have released the tension as the flop came and are over relaxed with their hand. but still get overexcited and bet too quick when it's their turn....betting too quick is also a little release of tension.

i wouldnt take that book as verbatim as if they dont do what is described in there that it isnt possible. it's a guide on helping to piece together info and confirm it on a player...it's not definitive.

i think the poster clued in on the bet speed too. which can be a very good indication...when a typical player bets with virtually no fear. if the hero barely gets his chips on the felt and the other guy has his raise in, and this player is pretty str8forward, and not real tricky, (doesnt bet draws, and plays top pairs rather scared or passive) id be wary of that bet...

i think youre overthinking this player dyno....again, from the post, it sounds like the hero has a very good read on this players play.

ill give him credit for a good read, but failure to act on it...

just some thoughts...

b

[Mikey]

"You should be more inclined to believe he can beat AK if he did flinch or shake"



you are using the word flinch and shake as synonyms.

I'm using the word or phrase, "without a flinch" meaning

-fast, instantaneous, quick, rapid