Steamboatin cruises back to shallow water.

[steamboatin]

with his Smokestack between his legs. No more 10-20 until my game or my attitude (both need work) improve. I am only down 100 Big Bets and that is easily explained away by normal variance and I can afford to play 10-20 but I think I am playing above my emotional bankroll kinda like DR Al talks about. I haven't read the article just picked up a little here and there but the numbers really bother me.

I took a bad beat this afternoon and it really had a significant impact on my attitude. I don't want to tell a bad beat story because no one cares and it doesn't matter because it happens to everyone all the time and I don't want to just blame it all on variance. It would be easy to focus on the bad beats and keep on playing 10-20 because that is what I really want to play but I am just not ready.

I don't think I am being outplayed, but when I take a bad beat at 10-20 it bothers me much more than it should and that is as big a problem as any.

I think I need to retreat and work on my game.

[MicroBob]

I don't really know your game but it's my impression that you probably need to work on it as well.


It's also possible (and maybe even likely) that the bad-beat was perhaps even misplayed in there. I recommend posting the hand in the SS forum....and also posting the occasional hand or 3 in the micro or SS forums to see what some of the guys think.

If you want to work on your game you have to prepare to get totally blasted though. It can be a cruel cruel world in the strategy forums but if you can accept their advice it's worth it. If you're afraid...very afraid...you can just lurk and check out some of the hands there and will still learn much.


Sorry it hasn't been going well for you. I do think you'll be best to steer clear of the 10/20 for now though until you have greater confidence in your abilities as well as more skill at the table.

[steamboatin]

10-20 with a full kill and it is a kill pot. 6 limpers and I raise on the button with QQ. SB folds BB completes. Flop is 54T rainbow, checked around to me and I bet. Turn is a 5, checked around to me and I bet. BB raises, I call, river is a T, BB checks and I check because I am certain He has a 5. BB drags a giant pot with 57 spades.

Hands like this don't bother me at 3-6, 4-8 or even 5-10 but I think I have a misconception about the quality of play at 10-20 and that amplifies the impact that it has on me.

Also, I have too much ego involved in my game and being down 100 BB against hands like this is really driving me crazy which pretty much insures that I am not playing well.

All this rambling is just getting around to saying that Microbob is right, its back to the kiddie pool for me.

[canis582]

Maybe you could have taken a deep breath and say to yourself "what is he rasing me with?"

[ibstudly1]

Hey steamboat i know you play alot in tunica. can you give me some advice on the best nl game. i am planning a guys weekend this month. and want to play some nl. thanks for any help. we also want to play a tourney on saturday.

[steamboatin]

the Gold Strike has 1-2 NL that plays big and a 10 AM Saturday tourney that has a low buyin.

[steamboatin]

I was quite confident He had a five, the pot was giant so it was worth one more bet to try and catch a Q. He checked to me when te board paired again so the showdown was free.

[Preytar]

Steam,

I always enjoy your posts. You seem to be a good guy that loves poker not only for the fun of the game, but also for the social aspects it provides.

I think your plan is something that every player should follow from time to time. I've done it both for online and b/m play, and it has always helped me. I am by no means an expert, but I feel that you should be willing to take a shot at higher levels, evaluate your play, take stock in how you feel about the game, review your results, and decide if the game is right for you at the present time. If you move down a level, there is nothing preventing you from taking another stab later.

Good luck, and keep wearing the shirt!

Brian

[midas]

Steam:

I don't think your issue is this hand but that you took this beat on a kill pot with cards you couldn't lay down. I don't know how the kill works in Indy but if it's pot size based (not 2 wins in a row) you can expect huge swings in you BR, luck plays more of a factor. I played Foxwoods 5-10 with a full kill after the pot size is $100 or greater and I was always way up or down my limit. I went down to non-kill 4-8, re-evaluated my game and then jumped to non-kill 10-20 where there is more consistency in the play and the pot size. At this game, I am experiencing more typical results and the bad beats don't bother me because of the consistency of the pot sizes.

[ibstudly1]

your the man. thanks for the help. hope to see you there.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
10-20 with a full kill and it is a kill pot. 6 limpers and I raise on the button with QQ. SB folds BB completes. Flop is 54T rainbow, checked around to me and I bet. Turn is a 5, checked around to me and I bet. BB raises, I call, river is a T, BB checks and I check because I am certain He has a 5. BB drags a giant pot with 57 spades.

Hands like this don't bother me at 3-6, 4-8 or even 5-10 but I think I have a misconception about the quality of play at 10-20 and that amplifies the impact that it has on me.

Also, I have too much ego involved in my game and being down 100 BB against hands like this is really driving me crazy which pretty much insures that I am not playing well.

All this rambling is just getting around to saying that Microbob is right, its back to the kiddie pool for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

BB played his hand fine until the river.

[steamboatin]

The blinds stay the same so would you call $30 with 5,7 suited?

[BoogerFace]

I would have played that hand the same. If it's any consolation.

I agree with Midas. You were playing 20/40 disguised as a kill game. Did you buy in for a grand?

I'm in a similar boat as you. I'll play 10/20 only if it's loose/passive. Otherwise I'll kick ass in the kiddie pool.

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]

I would have played that hand the same. If it's any consolation.

I agree with Midas. You were playing 20/40 disguised as a kill game. Did you buy in for a grand?


[/ QUOTE ]

QFA -- you can't expect the BB to throw in a voluntary $30 on Heinz 57.

OTOH, you'd have needed $900 in the pot to get pot odds on the checkraise, if you were certain he had a 5 in his hand. You only had two outs to beat him at that point.

This hand accounts for a loss of 7 BB at 10-20. Frustrating, yes; but as you say, 'variance' covers it. I'd try to write this one off (possibly with the help of some intoxicating substances) and analyze the other 93 BBs for potential leaks.

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, you'd have needed $900 in the pot to get pot odds on the checkraise, if you were certain he had a 5 in his hand. You only had two outs to beat him at that point.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd agree with that, but since it's a low-limit table, and judging from what I've seen at LL tables, I'd have to factor in the odds of how likely it is that even though I'm sure he has a 5, I'm wrong. Depending on how likely that is, it might be worth a check/call in the pot that SB was dealing with.

[ShawnHoo]

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds stay the same so would you call $30 with 5,7 suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put in another small bet against 6 limpers and a guy who raised on the button, yes. Whether it's $3, $30, or $300 is irrelevant.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds stay the same so would you call $30 with 5,7 suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming all limpers call the raise BB is getting 9.8:1 on his call not all that awful really.

[steamboatin]

You guys are going to make me mental. Every book and almost every post syas you have to play tight and now it is okay to call a raise with 5,7 suited.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are going to make me mental. Every book and almost every post syas you have to play tight and now it is okay to call a raise with 5,7 suited.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to make anyone mental here steam. Most of the time it is correct to fold 57s to a raise. When your getting 10:1 on your call its a pretty easy call IMO. BTW I am assuming all six limpers are calling (they should).

[steamboatin]

So, if we have six limpers we can play about any hand for a raise? We don't have to worry that we are dominated? Just GAMBOOL!

[ShawnHoo]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if we have six limpers we can play about any hand for a raise? We don't have to worry that we are dominated? Just GAMBOOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

Two words: pot odds.

Four more words: Read Small Stakes Holdem.

[ShawnHoo]

By the way, I'm not suggesting you played the hand poorly. It's just that it wasn't a particularly terrible beat.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if we have six limpers we can play about any hand for a raise? We don't have to worry that we are dominated? Just GAMBOOL!

[/ QUOTE ]
I would play my hand exactly the same way the BB did. You were 5-outed, it happens. If you are not calling in this spot preflop, you should read SSH like someone else has mentioned.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if we have six limpers we can play about any hand for a raise? We don't have to worry that we are dominated? Just GAMBOOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

Steamboatin its just my opinion. If you don't mind I would like to post this hand in the SS forum as the big blind and see what the responses are.

[steamboatin]

I have have read it numerous times and there is no way 5,7 suited is profitable against QQ in the long term.

I ran 10,000 hands through a little program I bought on Ebay.

Player 1 QQ

Player 2 5s7s

5 other players have random hands.

Player 1 wins 3201 times out of 10,000
Player 2 wins 1236 times out of 10,000

The other players win about 1,000 hands each. This assumes nobody folds.

[steamboatin]

Absolutely, post away, I am here to learn and anything that helps my game is welcome so don't worry about hurting my feelings.

[Black Aces 518]

They win 1 time in 8, they are getting 10-1 on their $$. Call.

PS I would have been sick too with the QQ

[Tom1975]

He doesn't have to win the most hands to show a profit over time. You're still looking at this as his hand vs. your hand. No one is arguing that QQ doesn't dominate 75s. However, 75s is a very fine drawing hand which can be profitibly played when there enough people in the pot. If I were the big blind, you could have showed me your queens and I still would have called. Most of the time I will lose but the few times I win will make up for all the times I lose because of the size of the pot.

[ShawnHoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have have read it numerous times and there is no way 5,7 suited is profitable against QQ in the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing that it is. But in this hand, where the BB has to call one more bet pre-flop in a pot that already contains 9.5 bets (and that should contain several more once the limpers call), he's foolish not to call.

Obviously, if you had raised UTG with your hand and the player with 7s5s was next to act, a call would be foolish.

[steamboatin]

He has a $10 blind and has to call $30 more dollars. Then He makes middle pair and has to call another bet to try and hit one of 5 outs. I still think He is a fish.

[MegumiAmano]

[ QUOTE ]
I have have read it numerous times and there is no way 5,7 suited is profitable against QQ in the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH lists 75s as one of the hands to play against a raise in BB on a loose table.

[steamboatin]

Opinion is going against me in the Small Stakes forum also.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Opinion is going against me in the Small Stakes forum also.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you're wrong.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
The blinds stay the same so would you call $30 with 5,7 suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

The call is closer than people are making it sound. It's not one small bet... it's 1.5 small bets. It's probably ok because so many are in the pot, but only because of that. And even then it's not a big winner. Take three people out of the pot, and it's decidedly a bad call.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The blinds stay the same so would you call $30 with 5,7 suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

The call is closer than people are making it sound. It's not one small bet... it's 1.5 small bets. It's probably ok because so many are in the pot, but only because of that. And even then it's not a big winner. Take three people out of the pot, and it's decidedly a bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point would you start to consider this to be -EV? 4-handed it's no good but you're looking at 285:30 here, assuming no one limp-reraises -- we can probably round it to around 9:1 to account for the times that we see some strange preflop action and have to fold. Even at 9:1, it seems to be a pretty easy call, especially given the fact that the pot will be 8-handed, which should increase your overlay for the times you flop a strong hand/draw, assuming you play well postflop.

Rob

[steamboatin]

Okay, I concede.

[MicroBob]

It's good that you're learning here.

Folding a decent hand like 75s with that many players would be a bad play.
Folding with middle-pair in such a huge pot when we assume that he probably has 5 outs (hitting either 2-pair or his set) would also be pretty lousy. He is committed to calling 1 flop bet to see if he can hit catch and out.
Additionally, for all he knows you could have AK and are just trying to take it.



Also - as has been mentioned...this is not a particularly brutal beat.
He played the hand decently and so did you. It happens.
This type of hand will happen to you over and over and over and you need to learn not to get aggrevated by it.
Sometimes they caught runner-runner inside-straight when they had no business being in the hand. Other times they will catch a sort of long-shot out when the pot was big enough to justify them sticking around.


I suspect you have learned a lot from this hand.
Think how much better your poker will get if you continue to think about these things as well as read and post over in ML and SS.



Also - playing 10/20 is one thing. Playing it with a half-kill is another. You say that the money isn't THAT significant to you....but I do think it is beyond your comfort level actually. I think this especially because of your tone on certain 'bigger' pots that you have won or lost.
10 BB's feels like a lot of money at this level when you are used to 4/8. But swings of $500+ are pretty common at 10/20....and obviously even greater swings if there's a handful of hands that are half-killed and are playing even higher than 10/20.

But mostly I don't think your poker is strong enough to handle this game. Sorry to be harsh....but with a high VP as you have indicated and some basic misunerstandings about how to play in some situations I think it's pretty obvious that there's some serious leak-pluggage that needs to be tended too before even thinking of treading back to the 10/20 again.

[steamboatin]

I think you are exactly right, it is probably good that I got beat with this hand, what I have learned is worth more than the size of the pot I lost.

[itsmarty]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I think you are exactly right, it is probably good that I got beat with this hand, what I have learned is worth more than the size of the pot I lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just be careful not to let this become an excuse for playing more hands. For every situation like this (seems like a fold at a glance, but can be called profitably) there are tons that are the exact opposite.

Martin