Very rare turn decision

[JacksonTens]

The decision I had to make with this hand was a strange one as with small pockets it seems you either hit the flop or fold, but this pot was just so big.

B&M $4-8 hero is MP3 with 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, fold, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, hero calls, CO calls, fold, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 caps, all call

[now I know some may dispute the flop coldcall, but I think with that many players pot committed, its a definate call, and once I was in for 2 bets with 7 players I'm in for 4.

flop (7 players) 28 SB 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB checks, BB bets, fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, hero calls, CO calls, fold.

[I have two outs to win the pot is over 30:1]

Turn (5 players) 33SB Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, hero???

Hmmm, Its tough call or fold?

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
[now I know some may dispute the flop coldcall, but I think with that many players pot committed, its a definate call, and once I was in for 2 bets with 7 players I'm in for 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reasoning is terrible. Every situation should be evaluated independently.

[ QUOTE ]
[I have two outs to win the pot is over 30:1]

[/ QUOTE ]

You do not have 2 outs here. You might even be drawing dead already.

The 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif can make someone a flush, and even if it doesn't, anyone with a heart will have a redraw at the river.

Is it inconceivable that someone has 66 here?

Your 4 completes a straight draw as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, Its tough call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a fold PF, imo. I'm definitely folding it now.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif can make someone a flush, and even if it doesn't, anyone with a heart will have a redraw at the river.

Your 4 completes a straight draw as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Both these hands can be beat with a full house.

You had the proper odds to call for your 2-outer on the flop. Now that you didn't hit it on the turn, you can fold.

[JacksonTens]

Well I folded the turn. But are you sure the call wasn't there? I have a feeling it was, I was getting over the 23:1 odd to draw so I think this situation actually is a call.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I folded the turn. But are you sure the call wasn't there? I have a feeling it was, I was getting over the 23:1 odd to draw so I think this situation actually is a call.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see 23:1.

[SmileyEH]

This thread rocks.

-SmileyEH

[sy_or_bust]

You can call the turn because your relative position ensures the implied odds you need. What a mess..

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
This was a fold PF, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending upon table conditions, there may be nothing wrong with the initial coldcall. And folding it on the way back when Hero can expect 13:1 to call two more would just seem bad.

[JacksonTens]

PF=28SB+5SB+4BB=
=20.5BB -1.5 (for rake)
=19BB
so lets say I call a BB on the turn, then the BB bets, gets MP2 to call then I raise if I hit, at least one will surely call, probly both after going so far might even get the other guy to col-call. But I'm sure I can drag 4BB from somewhere. Like I said it's very close. Very.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

PS Dont even guess what the river brought!!!!

[Crimson]

The CC pf is crap, imo. Fold the turn. You dont even have 2 clean outs, with the straight, flush, or fullhouse. 66 has you beat already, and the last /images/graemlins/heart.gif screws u over.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The CC pf is crap, imo. Fold the turn. You dont even have 2 clean outs, with the straight, flush, or fullhouse. 66 has you beat already, and the last /images/graemlins/heart.gif screws u over.

[/ QUOTE ]
People who are saying the 2 outs aren't clean because of the straight and flush possibilities are really confusing the hell out of me.

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The CC pf is crap, imo. Fold the turn. You dont even have 2 clean outs, with the straight, flush, or fullhouse. 66 has you beat already, and the last /images/graemlins/heart.gif screws u over.

[/ QUOTE ]
People who are saying the 2 outs aren't clean because of the straight and flush possibilities are really confusing the hell out of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to say the same thing. This hand looks like a train wreck, but beneath the madness the only real mistake is the turn fold.

[Crimson]

I apologize. I misread. The two outs are clean, i still think the PF cc is a mistake, but your position gives you the implied odds of 4 more BB on the river. Turn call is ok, close, but ok, but even if you hit it, you could still be behind to 66 or QQ.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
People who are saying the 2 outs aren't clean because of the straight and flush possibilities are really confusing the hell out of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my bad.

That's what I get for responding while playing.

You still shouldn't have called the PF cap, though.

I guess you can call the turn here and fold the river UI.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

You still shouldn't have called the PF cap, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should he have coldcalled preflop the first time? It's close enough that it doesn't matter a whole lot.

Folding to the cap once he's already put in two preflop, however, would be an absolute disaster.

Folding the turn isn't bad because you aren't always drawing to two outs here, but calling isn't horrible either. Any comments from people about flush/straight completing cards are retarded and should be dismissed.

Rob

[baronzeus]

Jesus, this is a huge pot, but I'll take a shot at it.

You're getting 19.5:1 to draw here. If your 4 of hearts hits, you will get a TON of extra bets when everyone completes their flush draw. Not calling would be IDIOTIC.

So would not raising the river... I think you are ahead enough here that not raising the river if your 4 hits is bad.

[Brian]

I would always cold-call here pre-Flop. Pocket pairs love big, multi-way raised pots. The main thing they care about are implied odds: will there be enough people and action to pay me off if I hit a set? The original poster didn't mention how loose the table was, but with 2 limpers and a raiser already, that's plenty for me to play any pocket pair.

As for post-Flop, I think the Hero played his hand well assuming he folded the Turn. The Flop call is a no-brainer getting 31:1 with a 3-straight and 2 outs to a full house. On the Turn, though, the Hero is only getting 19:1 as a 22:1 dog, but he won't always win when he hits. While QQ, 66, 55, 87h, 73h, and 32h are very remote possibilities, the fact that they exist combined with needing to make up over 3 big bets on the River means this is a fold.

-Brian

[EDIT]: Fudged the math a little.

[bobbyi]

I think you have played the hand perfectly up until this point. You have a call on the turn.

[Justin A]

All you guys saying the preflop play is bad really need to check yourselves. After two limpers and a raiser he definitely needs to call. Flop is also an easy call, and the turn is an easy fold.

[SippinSoma]

[11:49] <entity_> and people saying "fold preflop or if you call fold to the cap"
[11:49] <entity_> god
[11:49] <@s0ma> yeah
[11:50] <entity_> does anyone actually teach people how to read the board anymore?
[11:50] <@s0ma> i think there's more important issues at hand
[11:50] <@s0ma> like [what to do] if someone picks up a redraw on the river
[11:50] <entity_> haha
[11:50] <entity_> you should post that

[JacksonTens]

Well thanks for all the feedback. On the table type... $4-8 is the minimum at my B&M. It is garbadge. we had 6+ to the flop. Hell if SSHE says T9s can CC so can 44! The only two hands that had me were QQ and 66, and the PFR had QQ but I still think I made the mistake of folding the turn. The main thing I learned from all this is that you cant always fold smallPP UI on the flop, and that its also very hard to do calculations with enormous pots. But thanks guys, top stuff!

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif