Do you find a raise here anywhere? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 07:40 PM

No reads whatsoever on villian.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

River: (9.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.20 BB

Does villian's flop raise look like a free card flush play to anyone else? I should have led the turn, right? Is it totally terrible to simply call down here?

~ Tilts

jba

07-06-2005, 07:46 PM

too timid IMHO

[ QUOTE ]
Does villian's flop raise look like a free card flush play to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

without a read I would assume not

[ QUOTE ]
I should have led the turn, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would vote c/r for value and to try to get MP to fold a club

the way you played it, I think you need to bet and call a raise on the river. CO remember really liked the flop, so if he's sitting on a K he really might be too afraid you have an A or are slow playing a flush. I would bet the river.

ThisHo

07-06-2005, 08:09 PM

I think its a little too tight not to lead out or raise on the turn. If you lead and are raised you can decide how good a read you have that he has a flush and then either fold or call down OR if you lead and are called then I'd lead again on the river and call a raise.

ThisHo

private joker

07-06-2005, 08:14 PM

Fold preflop. With no read, you can't assume the PFR is raising light, so you could easily be dominated; QTo is close to a trash hand, and even more difficult to play out of position. Dump it. If you're routinely calling preflop raises with QTo in this spot, you have a leak.

jjacky

07-06-2005, 08:22 PM

doesn't look like a free card play to me. the last thing a flush draw wants to do is to blow out the field and villain confronted 2 players with the decission to call 2 bets cold.

i would lead or c/r the turn.

i agree with joker that a call pf with QTo doesn't look good.

baronzeus

07-06-2005, 08:36 PM

Fold preflop.

C/r RIVER.

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 08:50 PM

Fold preflop, raise the turn. You need to convince MP3 to fold whatever club he may be holding. Take it from there.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. With no read, you can't assume the PFR is raising light, so you could easily be dominated; QTo is close to a trash hand, and even more difficult to play out of position. Dump it. If you're routinely calling preflop raises with QTo in this spot, you have a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

K, first off I was really looking for advice on whether I should raise. I agree my play was slightly too timid, though I'm not sure it was too far wrong, as I could confidently expect villian to bet the river even when behind.

But as for folding, I think your analysis is weak-tight, and ignores some obvious (and compelling) reasons to call.

I am in the BB with two decent high straight making cards that I can easily get away from if they miss the flop.

I can expect a lot of action if I get a nice flop.

And most importantly, I am getting in for half price and getting almost 7.5-1 on my call, assuming UTG just calls (which seems almost assured).

If you are routinely folding Q-10 in this spot getting those odds, it is you who has the leak, my friend. It's a very clear call.

~ Tilts

mtdoak

07-06-2005, 09:20 PM

Bet the flop, raise the turn. And call down if 3 bet.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, raise the turn. And call down if 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bet the flop facing a certain raise?

Not criticizing, just wondering.

~ Tilts

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, raise the turn. You need to convince MP3 to fold whatever club he may be holding. Take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need a JoshD is right gimmick account

Paxosmotic

07-06-2005, 09:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are routinely folding Q-10 in this spot getting those odds, it is you who has the leak, my friend. It's a very clear call.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]
To break out a 2+2 cliche, this is a fold pre-flop, and it isn't even close. What are some hands that MP3 might raise preflop? KQ, JJ, AT? QT can pair one of its cards and still be solidly behind those hands. QTo is widely known to be a late position limp or blind steal hand only round these parts, and you'll likely not get many people to agree with defending your blind with it.

private joker

07-06-2005, 09:37 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />

K, first off I was really looking for advice on whether I should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Then I should have ignored the bad preflop play.

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />

But as for folding, I think your analysis is weak-tight, and ignores some obvious (and compelling) reasons to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're entitled to a) that opinion; and b) sit at my table anytime.

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
I am in the BB with two decent high straight making cards that I can easily get away from if they miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. How easily can you get away from it when the opponent has raised PF with AT, KT, AQ, KQ, or QJ? Or KK or AA?

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />

I can expect a lot of action if I get a nice flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what the PFR is thinking when he raises AQ hoping to flop Q-high. He's praying he gets action from a fish who called with QTo and thinks his top pair is good.

Please study the concept of reverse implied odds. You'll find the results disturbing as they relate to your poker theory.

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />

If you are routinely folding Q-10 in this spot getting those odds, it is you who has the leak, my friend. It's a very clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Keep it up, please. You don't have to take my advice if you don't want. Like I said, good players are relying on this kind of thinking for their income. There's nothing better than knowing any preflop raise will get called by a payoff hand like yours.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

K, first off I was really looking for advice on whether I should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Then I should have ignored the bad preflop play.

[ QUOTE ]

But as for folding, I think your analysis is weak-tight, and ignores some obvious (and compelling) reasons to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're entitled to a) that opinion; and b) sit at my table anytime.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in the BB with two decent high straight making cards that I can easily get away from if they miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. How easily can you get away from it when the opponent has raised PF with AT, KT, AQ, KQ, or QJ? Or KK or AA?

[ QUOTE ]

I can expect a lot of action if I get a nice flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what the PFR is thinking when he raises AQ hoping to flop Q-high. He's praying he gets action from a fish who called with QTo and thinks his top pair is good.

Please study the concept of reverse implied odds. You'll find the results disturbing as they relate to your poker theory.

[ QUOTE ]

If you are routinely folding Q-10 in this spot getting those odds, it is you who has the leak, my friend. It's a very clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Keep it up, please. You don't have to take my advice if you don't want. Like I said, good players are relying on this kind of thinking for their income. There's nothing better than knowing any preflop raise will get called by a payoff hand like yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rofl did you even read the analysis? Do you have any idea how bloody blindingly stupid weak-tight folding in that spot would have been getting 7.5-1?? It's not even close to a fold.

Reverse implied odds? You think I am going to hold on to showdown on a Q high flop here? Funny stuff.

The point of calling preflop is to flop a big hand or draw and to fold anything else without getting in trouble being second best. I thought you'd have realized that, but I guess not.

~ Tilts

Paxosmotic

07-06-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

K, first off I was really looking for advice on whether I should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sorry. Then I should have ignored the bad preflop play.

[ QUOTE ]

But as for folding, I think your analysis is weak-tight, and ignores some obvious (and compelling) reasons to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're entitled to a) that opinion; and b) sit at my table anytime.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in the BB with two decent high straight making cards that I can easily get away from if they miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. How easily can you get away from it when the opponent has raised PF with AT, KT, AQ, KQ, or QJ? Or KK or AA?

[ QUOTE ]

I can expect a lot of action if I get a nice flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what the PFR is thinking when he raises AQ hoping to flop Q-high. He's praying he gets action from a fish who called with QTo and thinks his top pair is good.

Please study the concept of reverse implied odds. You'll find the results disturbing as they relate to your poker theory.

[ QUOTE ]

If you are routinely folding Q-10 in this spot getting those odds, it is you who has the leak, my friend. It's a very clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Keep it up, please. You don't have to take my advice if you don't want. Like I said, good players are relying on this kind of thinking for their income. There's nothing better than knowing any preflop raise will get called by a payoff hand like yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rofl did you even read the analysis? Do you have any idea how bloody blindingly stupid weak-tight folding in that spot would have been getting 7.5-1?? It's not even close to a fold.

Reverse implied odds? You think I am going to hold on to showdown on a Q high flop here? Funny stuff.

The point of calling preflop is to flop a big hand or draw and to fold anything else without getting in trouble being second best. I thought you'd have realized that, but I guess not.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]
You're about to become very popular around here.

private joker

07-06-2005, 09:50 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Do you have any idea how bloody blindingly stupid weak-tight folding in that spot would have been getting 7.5-1??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do. It would have been the right play.

You're confusing tight with weak-tight. Tight is what we aspire to be. Tight and aggressive. Weak-tight is a fit-or-fold mentality that often gives up equity when lacking the nuts, and refusing to recognize profitable drawing situations as well as not capitalizing by pushing edges and getting aggressive with strong hands. Folding QTo in this spot is not weak, it's tight. And it's right.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any idea how bloody blindingly stupid weak-tight folding in that spot would have been getting 7.5-1??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I do. It would have been the right play.

You're confusing tight with weak-tight. Tight is what we aspire to be. Tight and aggressive. Weak-tight is a fit-or-fold mentality that often gives up equity when lacking the nuts, and refusing to recognize profitable drawing situations as well as not capitalizing by pushing edges and getting aggressive with strong hands. Folding QTo in this spot is not weak, it's tight. And it's right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

What about the odds fails to get through to you?

Poker is not about static PF raise calling requirements. It's about adjusting to your situation. Facing an UTG raiser and no callers, yeah the pot is way too small to call. But 7.5-1 on a BB half bet call with two big straight making cards in an aggressive game? You're making a GIANT error folding here. If you want to persist in claiming you're right, fine, I'll drop it. But you are 100% wrong and ... it's not even close.

~ Tilts

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 09:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about the odds fails to get through to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You claimed you werent going to be continuting on a Q high flop. Only when you flopped a monster.

As such, please calculate the odds of flopping these monsters, and get back to us.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about the odds fails to get through to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You claimed you werent going to be continuting on a Q high flop. Only when you flopped a monster.

As such, please calculate the odds of flopping these monsters, and get back to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a draw would have been sufficient. A draw, two pair, trips, a 3 flush to the Q. Those are what I would have been looking for. And just FYI, the odds of those do not have to be 7.5-1 to make a flop call correct, because of implied odds.

~ Tilts

Paxosmotic

07-06-2005, 10:02 PM

Since you've clearly tested this over a large and meaningful sample, why not post your stats on QTo in BB against a PFR from EP? To get us started, I'll post mine.

VP$IP : 0.00
PFR : 0.00
WtSD : 0.00
W$SD : 0.00

KDawgCometh

07-06-2005, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, raise the turn. You need to convince MP3 to fold whatever club he may be holding. Take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

watch out Josh, he might think you're bragging /images/graemlins/grin.gif

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A draw, two pair, trips, a 3 flush to the Q. Those are what I would have been looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont get those very often.

[ QUOTE ]
And just FYI, the odds of those do not have to be 7.5-1 to make a flop call correct, because of implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the draw portion of your flop flop range actually requires MORE than 7.5-1.

Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=2121253&F orum=f21&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2120690 &Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=24328&daterange=1& newerval=7&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post2121253) for explanation.

Paxosmotic

07-06-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A draw, two pair, trips, a 3 flush to the Q. Those are what I would have been looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]

You dont get those very often.

[/ QUOTE ]
Combined, hero is about a 13:1 to hit any of those. That's a whole lot of ground to make up.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since you've clearly tested this over a large and meaningful sample, why not post your stats on QTo in BB against a PFR from EP? To get us started, I'll post mine.

VP$IP : 0.00
PFR : 0.00
WtSD : 0.00
W$SD : 0.00

[/ QUOTE ]

He was in MP, btw. And way to fold too often.

~ Tilts

Paxosmotic

07-06-2005, 10:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you've clearly tested this over a large and meaningful sample, why not post your stats on QTo in BB against a PFR from EP? To get us started, I'll post mine.

VP$IP : 0.00
PFR : 0.00
WtSD : 0.00
W$SD : 0.00

[/ QUOTE ]

He was in MP, btw. And way to fold too often.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]
I lie awake at night thinking about it sometimes. You think that's bad, you should see my 94o stats.

vvv I'll remember to make a call getting 7.5:1 on a 13:1 shot more often. Any two can win!

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:16 PM

I am starting to remember why I don't read this forum very often ... you guys are pretty effing terrible.

~ Tilts

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 10:17 PM

Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:22 PM

Tilts: I agree with Joker here. Your argument has some merit, but the problem is the reverse implied odds. A hand like QTo is best played for it's top pair value. The straight possibility is nice benefit.

Against a PF-Raiser in what looks to be a 4-way pot, acting first, QTo just doesn't have the power to justify calling here. Far too often you're going to be hitting top pair and paying off a hand like AQ, KQ, JQ JJ, QQ, KK, AA, ATs, KTs.

Throw into the mix that there are two players who are often going to be in there with a draw of some sort, and you should agree that it's just not worth getting involved here against unknowns.

If you had a specific read on the villian where you knew he was raising thin here, then your call is fine. As it stands, calling or folding here are pretty close, but it seems to me that folding is clearly better, even if not by a huge margin.

[ QUOTE ]
watch out Josh, he might think you're bragging /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'm caught.

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, raise the turn. You need to convince MP3 to fold whatever club he may be holding. Take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need a JoshD is right gimmick account

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to make an "Ishmael needs to hurry up and buy the McCartney Tickets" gimmick account. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

chesspain

07-06-2005, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Reverse implied odds? You think I am going to hold on to showdown on a Q high flop here? Funny stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck "getting away" from a Q-high flop--especially if the action is heads-up.

[ QUOTE ]
The point of calling preflop is to flop a big hand or draw and to fold anything else without getting in trouble being second best. I thought you'd have realized that, but I guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you flopped your OESD but you weren't even able to find a raise when you hit your straight because you were afraid you were behind to a flush. Indeed, you could have easily had the second best hand that you allegedly took such great pains to avoid.

That's why most good players don't call raises with seductive, crappy hands like QTo.

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, raise the turn. You need to convince MP3 to fold whatever club he may be holding. Take it from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need a JoshD is right gimmick account

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to make a "Mr pink needs to tell Ishmael how many he is bringing" account!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

(also, note: tickets will be available for a while, so, though organization is nice, jeff wont kill the trip or anything)

chesspain

07-06-2005, 10:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Reverse implied odds? You think I am going to hold on to showdown on a Q high flop here? Funny stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck "getting away" from a Q-high flop--especially if the action is heads-up.

[ QUOTE ]
The point of calling preflop is to flop a big hand or draw and to fold anything else without getting in trouble being second best. I thought you'd have realized that, but I guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you flopped your OESD but you weren't even able to find a raise when you hit your straight because you were afraid you were behind to a flush. Indeed, you could have easily had the second best hand that you allegedly took such great pains to avoid.

That's why most good players don't call raises with seductive, crappy hands like QTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only wasn't *willing* to raise because I would be losing more when behind and winning only slightly less when ahead.

And it would be dead easy to get away from a Q high flop with this hand. Come on.

~ Tilts

DMBFan23

07-06-2005, 10:29 PM

don't you have anything better to do?

DMBFan23

07-06-2005, 10:31 PM

nah I'm cool on the cookies, but I could use some CinnamonWind Toast Crunch

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 10:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nah I'm cool on the cookies, but I could use some CinnamonWind Toast Crunch

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG!!!

You think???

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I only wasn't *willing* to raise because I would be losing more when behind and winning only slightly less when ahead.

And it would be dead easy to get away from a Q high flop with this hand. Come on.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

It really, really wouldn't be. If you can get away from a Q high flop with this hand then you've got some other leaks as well.

Example:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero ....

What's your line from here? If it involves folding, you're wrong.

The only time you're able to get away from a Q high flop is when you're in 3rd place, and first and second are battling it out. Even in that situation, you're not getting out until (at least) the turn.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're absolutely right about how I should have played postflop and 100% wrong about calling preflop.

This is an EASY decision guys. I am in shock at the basic level of misunderstanding on this thread. Really shocked.

~ Tilts

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're absolutely right about how I should have played postflop and 100% wrong about calling preflop.

This is an EASY decision guys. I am in shock at the basic level of misunderstanding on this thread. Really shocked.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Duder, some of the best players on these forums have all agreed that you're wrong. Sometimes one or two of us is mistaken, but rarely (read never) are we all wrong about something this simple.

DMBFan23

07-06-2005, 10:36 PM

Sadly I will never know because all I see is

[ QUOTE ]
*** you are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

but the few times I was stupid enough to hit "quote" to read his/her babble (and all the posts that led to my ignoring him/her/it) it's seemed plausible, and he/she/it is certainly equally as worthless.

if they're not, they really need to take your advice and forget this account ever existed and come back fresh

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 10:38 PM

Dear DMB,

Your showing in this thread is brilliant. IE:

CinnamonWind Toast Crunch

and

he/she/it

Come back to SS more often,

CMI

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I need to make a "Mr pink needs to tell Ishmael how many he is bringing" account!

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

(also, note: tickets will be available for a while, so, though organization is nice, jeff wont kill the trip or anything)

[/ QUOTE ]

I talked to him a few days ago, he said he's definitely coming, but he didn't say how many he's bringing.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're absolutely right about how I should have played postflop and 100% wrong about calling preflop.

This is an EASY decision guys. I am in shock at the basic level of misunderstanding on this thread. Really shocked.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Duder, some of the best players on these forums have all agreed that you're wrong. Sometimes one or two of us is mistaken, but rarely (read never) are we all wrong about something this simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're all wrong, and this IS simple. Scary.

~ Tilts

JoshuaD

07-06-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're absolutely right about how I should have played postflop and 100% wrong about calling preflop.

This is an EASY decision guys. I am in shock at the basic level of misunderstanding on this thread. Really shocked.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Duder, some of the best players on these forums have all agreed that you're wrong. Sometimes one or two of us is mistaken, but rarely (read never) are we all wrong about something this simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're all wrong, and this IS simple. Scary.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Your well thought out and nuanced argument has convinced me. Thank you for posting.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im being serious:

You just came out of lurking, right?

Go back. Then, make a new account. And come back. Lose the holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: do you really think you are right, and EVERYONE who has posted in this thread is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone in the mood for some troll house cookies?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're absolutely right about how I should have played postflop and 100% wrong about calling preflop.

This is an EASY decision guys. I am in shock at the basic level of misunderstanding on this thread. Really shocked.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Duder, some of the best players on these forums have all agreed that you're wrong. Sometimes one or two of us is mistaken, but rarely (read never) are we all wrong about something this simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're all wrong, and this IS simple. Scary.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Your well thought out and nuanced argument has convinced me. Thank you for posting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody has shown why it is incorrect. All I have heard is variations on the "you're behind, you might be dominated" theme, which is obvious. What is not obvious is why one would turn down the odds I was getting in the BB in this spot. As long as one is not a dope postflop and can lay down second best, it's a dead simple call. I didn't even think twice about it, to be honest, as it was so clear.

~ Tilts

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has shown why it is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll ask again:

Compute the odds of flopping various hands (you said, draws, or made hands >= two pairs) and what your EV is for each of those hands.

You will see this is a fold.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-06-2005, 11:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has shown why it is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll ask again:

Compute the odds of flopping various hands (you said, draws, or made hands >= two pairs) and what your EV is for each of those hands.

You will see this is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

My EV for each of those hands depends on what other players are holding, so please don't facetiously ask me to "compute the odds" as though that ends the debate. It does not.

Just an fyi, the players in high stakes (you know, the really good ones and the pros) view this as a call.

Call with Q10 say the high stakes players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2806348&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I am fully consifdent that the majority of the rest of the responses will also be to call. Maybe that's why they're in high stakes.

~ Tilts

CallMeIshmael

07-06-2005, 11:59 PM

Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=230 9770&Forum=f3&Words=%2Brake&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=2308850&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4664&d aterange=1&newerval=6&newertype=y&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=#Post2309770) is a post from Nate (you know, that really good player) where he says you cant defend the same range of hands in the BB in smaller stakes as you can in the higher games.

chesspain

07-07-2005, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just an fyi, the players in high stakes (you know, the really good ones and the pros) view this as a call.

Call with Q10 say the high stakes players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2806348&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I am fully consifdent that the majority of the rest of the responses will also be to call. Maybe that's why they're in high stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three of the four individuals who advocate "call" (pokerhooker, pecto, and Net Warrior [very reluctantly]) are players I've never heard about--and I've been here for two years. Although I can't say anything bad about them, catagorizing them as being in the group of "the really good ones, the pros," means that you really are either an idiot or a troll.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=230 9770&Forum=f3&Words=%2Brake&Searchpage=0&Limit=25& Main=2308850&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4664&d aterange=1&newerval=6&newertype=y&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=#Post2309770) is a post from Nate (you know, that really good player) where he says you cant defend the same range of hands in the BB in smaller stakes as you can in the higher games.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I'll bet anything Nate would call with Q-10 in this spot.

2. This was 5-10, not 2-4. BIG difference.

3. Nate is talking about 3 handed raise situation in that post. This was a large 4 way pot that I could expect excellent action on if I hit.

4. That hand was a J3s call. Clearly not in the same league.

5. Your adamant refusal to admit you were wrong in jumping to the "fold preflop" conclusion is kind of amusing. It's clear you are wrong, and that the posters here in SS advocate a highly weak-tight (and sub-optimal) preflop style. If that works for you, fine I suppose. But making up nonsense arguments and putting words in Nate's mouth that I am 100% certain he would disagree with makes you look a bit desperate.

~ Tilts

IndieMatty

07-07-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody has shown why it is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll ask again:

Compute the odds of flopping various hands (you said, draws, or made hands >= two pairs) and what your EV is for each of those hands.

You will see this is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

My EV for each of those hands depends on what other players are holding, so please don't facetiously ask me to "compute the odds" as though that ends the debate. It does not.

Just an fyi, the players in high stakes (you know, the really good ones and the pros) view this as a call.

Call with Q10 say the high stakes players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2806348&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I am fully consifdent that the majority of the rest of the responses will also be to call. Maybe that's why they're in high stakes.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I said in MHS, to call. (I also suck at poker--i just run good)

Anyhoo..
SS is a different ballgame. With so many people in ML playing at a "higher" level. I.E. Raising anything playable instead of calling. QT is an easy call. In SS, especially 5/10 which is known for it's tigher play, you are most likely behind.

That being said, I have always made this call since I played 2/4. I flop goot!

CallMeIshmael

07-07-2005, 12:11 AM

OK... it appears you are lacking in reading skills. So, I will go a little slower for you. Here is what I said:

Here is a post from Nate (you know, that really good player) where he says you cant defend the same range of hands in the BB in smaller stakes as you can in the higher games.

Now, where did I say he would fold here? Please, quote me, directly, if you can.

You cant?

Thought so.

I simply provided evidence from a highly respected poster that stated that you cant compare BB calling hands in limits of like 30/60 to 2/4 (and 5/10 is a lot closer to 2/4 than 30/60).

The fact that you put further words in my mouth makes you look EVEN less credible than you do already.

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:13 AM

I raise this turn. The way CO played it, I suspect he has mid pair, top pair or two pair.

A really really bad player would raise they're flush here. Does anybody think a A-x /images/graemlins/spade.gif might try a raise here (for outs cleaning)? I doubt it, and while it MAY be possible it is unlikely.

Raise the turn.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just an fyi, the players in high stakes (you know, the really good ones and the pros) view this as a call.

Call with Q10 say the high stakes players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2806348&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I am fully consifdent that the majority of the rest of the responses will also be to call. Maybe that's why they're in high stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three of the four individuals who advocate "call" (pokerhooker, pecto, and Net Warrior [very reluctantly]) are players I've never heard about--and I've been here for two years. Although I can't say anything bad about them, catagorizing them as being in the group of "the really good ones, the pros," means that you really are either an idiot or a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then wait for the other responses. I'm sure they will be the same. And IndieMatty is someone I absolutely trust on these questions, a lot more than anyone on here. He says call and play cautiously/well postflop, which is precisely what I advocate (and what I did except for wussing out).

And one more thing. Calling people "idiots" and "trolls" because you disagree with them is a pot/kettle/black scenario. I'm not an idiot, and certainly not a troll. I like to discuss poker strategy, preferably with rational people who don't get all out of joint when they disagree with someone but can't come up with good reasons for doing so.

~ Tilts

IndieMatty

07-07-2005, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just an fyi, the players in high stakes (you know, the really good ones and the pros) view this as a call.

Call with Q10 say the high stakes players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2806348&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

I am fully consifdent that the majority of the rest of the responses will also be to call. Maybe that's why they're in high stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three of the four individuals who advocate "call" (pokerhooker, pecto, and Net Warrior [very reluctantly]) are players I've never heard about--and I've been here for two years. Although I can't say anything bad about them, catagorizing them as being in the group of "the really good ones, the pros," means that you really are either an idiot or a troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then wait for the other responses. I'm sure they will be the same. And IndieMatty is someone I absolutely trust on these questions, a lot more than anyone on here. He says call and play cautiously/well postflop, which is precisely what I advocate (and what I did except for wussing out).

And one more thing. Calling people "idiots" and "trolls" because you disagree with them is a pot/kettle/black scenario. I'm not an idiot, and certainly not a troll. I like to discuss poker strategy, preferably with rational people who don't get all out of joint when they disagree with someone but can't come up with good reasons for doing so.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

whoah whoah. I really do suck at poker.

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:15 AM

I think its the way u disagree and the way u take ppls advice is what they are getting on you about. Just chill out.

JoshuaD

07-07-2005, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Well then wait for the other responses. I'm sure they will be the same. And IndieMatty is someone I absolutely trust on these questions, a lot more than anyone on here. He says call and play cautiously/well postflop, which is precisely what I advocate (and what I did except for wussing out).

[/ QUOTE ]

I know chesspain alot better than those people. Not to insult them, but I just don't know them.

[ QUOTE ]

And one more thing. Calling people "idiots" and "trolls" because you disagree with them is a pot/kettle/black scenario. I'm not an idiot, and certainly not a troll. I like to discuss poker strategy, preferably with rational people who don't get all out of joint when they disagree with someone but can't come up with good reasons for doing so.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

You refused to argue the hand. Go read the thread. I posted 2 or 3 well thought out arguments, and you ignored them. Don't talk like you were riding the high road here, you were throwing out one liners like "I'm right, no wonder I left this forum", and you expect us to keep civil.

I still believe you're wrong, but I've said from the getgo that it's a marginal situation.

Learn to argue without being a douchebag.

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:26 AM

Question: Say we raise the turn, and get three bet. Whats the plan? I dont know if this was addressed...the flame war killed my memory.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think its the way u disagree and the way u take ppls advice is what they are getting on you about. Just chill out.

[/ QUOTE ]

What have I said that was rude?

Have I called anyone names? No. Have I been called names? Yes.

Did I ask for advice on the PF call? No. Did I get it? Yes. Did I disagree with it? Sure, of course I did. But I didn't do so with anything inflamatory other than pointing out (correctly I think) how weak-tight it is and what a no-brainer decision it is. I think the advice on this forum is like that a lot.

I haven't railed on about people being "idiots", and I haven't told people I thought they sucked. I *do* think that there is a reason the people here play small stakes, and not calling in these spots is a prime example. The advice on this forum, while often excellent, is often simply dreadful. This is one of those occassions, and calling me names or claiming I have some sort of superiority complex when I clearly do not (I have frequently admitted being wrong or playing incorrectly) is unhelpful and unconvincing. I'm sorry people get offended so very quickly on here, but it's really neither my fault nor my problem. I'm here to discuss poker strategy with adults.

~ Tilts

JoshuaD

07-07-2005, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Say we raise the turn, and get three bet. Whats the plan? I dont know if this was addressed...the flame war killed my memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on who does the 3-betting, but generally I'm crying and seeing a showdown.

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am starting to remember why I don't read this forum very often ... you guys are pretty effing terrible.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nothing vested in this argument. But there are ways of calling people idiots without actually saying the word "idiot."

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Say we raise the turn, and get three bet. Whats the plan? I dont know if this was addressed...the flame war killed my memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's too bad the strategy got lost.

I really think it has to be a calldown. To give the villian a flush here would mean he has high cards that are clubs ... and the only two of those are Q-10c (and has a Royal), which it seems absurd that he would be raising in the spot with given an UTG caller.

So a bet on the turn looks even more important here, just in case he is holding the Qc, which is highly plausible. It is highly unlikely he has a flush, and so I probably have the best hand on the turn, but I must charge AA, KK, JJ, and the Q/10c to outdraw me.

In retrospect, not raising the turn seems a huge error. I didn't even think at the time that the chances of him holding a flush were almost nil given that he raised.

~ Tilts

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am starting to remember why I don't read this forum very often ... you guys are pretty effing terrible.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nothing vested in this argument. But there are ways of calling people idiots without actually saying the word "idiot."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that was a poor choice of words to post. I was very frustrated. Apologies.

~ Tilts

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:43 AM

Its a snowball effect. Someone implies something then...it just rolls into what this thread has become. I really dont think anyone cares that u disagree, they are just saying they disagree with your disagreement and try to show u why.

As far as the turn error...sometimes its just one of those things, you're at the table and without really thinking through the action, you're like "No effin way" ...when really if u were to look at it from a distance, u would have clearly raised. IT happens sometimes.

As far as preflop...say the raiser is an insane lag, I dont mind a call...mind you, I rarely (and I do mean rarely) call this in the BB. Most of the time, it will have been a waste calling. But its what 13:1 that u will hit something, u probably wont have much trouble making it up, if u hit the PERFECT flop and such. But I digress....Im intrested to see what IndieMatty has to say.

Also, just out of curiousity, did u take it down? I would expect so.

JoshuaD

07-07-2005, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am starting to remember why I don't read this forum very often ... you guys are pretty effing terrible.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nothing vested in this argument. But there are ways of calling people idiots without actually saying the word "idiot."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that was a poor choice of words to post. I was very frustrated. Apologies.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. Now if you'd thoughtfully respond to some of the arguments in this thread we might be able to recover this thread from a flamefest into something useful.

Maybe we're all wrong, I don't think we are, but I've said from the beginning it seems marginal.

But if we are, you've got to work hard to convince us. We've got a buncha proven posters all disagreeing with you. You asked us for our advice, and we gave it. You said you thought we were idiots and wrong, and then expected us to just take you on your word and a few small arguments.

Either step up and prove it or don't get mad when we think we're right. Forums are a two way exchange of ideas, we're not a public service for you. Don't bitch about the quality of the advice here if you're unwilling to step up and contribute.

I honestly still think you're wrong. See my other two arguments for why, but I'm more than willing to discuss this with you civily. Maybe you can teach us a thing or two. Or maybe you're just trolling.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its a snowball effect. Someone implies something then...it just rolls into what this thread has become. I really dont think anyone cares that u disagree, they are just saying they disagree with your disagreement and try to show u why.

As far as the turn error...sometimes its just one of those things, you're at the table and without really thinking through the action, you're like "No effin way" ...when really if u were to look at it from a distance, u would have clearly raised. IT happens sometimes.

As far as preflop...say the raiser is an insane lag, I dont mind a call...mind you, I rarely (and I do mean rarely) call this in the BB. Most of the time, it will have been a waste calling. But its what 13:1 that u will hit something, u probably wont have much trouble making it up, if u hit the PERFECT flop and such. But I digress....Im intrested to see what IndieMatty has to say.

Also, just out of curiousity, did u take it down? I would expect so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, villain actually showed QJo with the Qc. I really, really should have bet the turn. I feel like a total idiot for not raising it.

~ Tilts

KDawgCometh

07-07-2005, 12:54 AM

I'm still wondering how a 6 max table gets to be 10 handed

oreogod

07-07-2005, 12:55 AM

I do that sometimes in the middle of my tables. You think they have it, when their play totally gives away what they really have...I always feel like an idiot after it happens...this happens rarely, but it does go on if Im having a bad day of suckouts or I am a little 'emotional'.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still wondering how a 6 max table gets to be 10 handed

[/ QUOTE ]

I call converter error

Brian

07-07-2005, 01:06 AM

I think Joshua did a pretty good job here of illustrating how a small mistake pre-Flop can easily compound itself post-Flop. When dealing with multiway raised pots, you will often become a slave to the pot post-Flop no matter how well you play; specifically, in Joshua's example, you are going to have to put in quite a few bets in an attempt to protect your hand only to find out you were drawing to 5 or less outs.

Even if you play the hand extremely well post-Flop, always putting in the minimum when you are beaten and extracting the maximum when you have the best hand, at the end of the day it's a situation you would have rather not put yourself in to begin with.

To quote the HPFAP section called "The First Two Cards: Live Blinds":

"When the pot is raised in an early position and you are in the big blind, one hand that demands special attention is KJ. The reason for this is that a hand such as KJ can easily make a second-best hand that you will have to pay off all the way. This does not mean that you can never call a legitimate raise with KJ, but it does mean that the typical players calls much too often with this hand. Again, this is one of those situations where knowing your opponent can be a crucial factor in determining the correct decision. Similiar comments apply for AJ, AT, and KT."

That segment refers to calling an early position raise, but I believe that a raise after a limper often indicates about the same level as hands. He'll have AA-TT far less often, but the hands he is raising with still often dominate QT. The segment also refers to far stronger hands than QT (AJ, KJ, etc.), but if Sklansky and Malmuth covered every single possible pre-Flop scenario, then I'm sure the book would be far too long. /images/graemlins/smile.gif The point is that the concept is the same: QT is a dominated hand against a legitimate raiser and it too often makes a second-best hadn that you will have to pay off all the way.

Now, if the raiser were known to be loose, then that would be another scenario entirely; however, against an unknown raiser, I side with the rest: Fold pre-Flop.

-Brian

damaniac

07-07-2005, 01:07 AM

I would like to thank the OP for wasting a solid 20 minutes of my life by starting and then prolonging this awful thread. Thank you, I didn't need them anyway.

TiltsMcFabulous

07-07-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am starting to remember why I don't read this forum very often ... you guys are pretty effing terrible.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

I have nothing vested in this argument. But there are ways of calling people idiots without actually saying the word "idiot."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that was a poor choice of words to post. I was very frustrated. Apologies.

~ Tilts

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. Now if you'd thoughtfully respond to some of the arguments in this thread we might be able to recover this thread from a flamefest into something useful.

Maybe we're all wrong, I don't think we are, but I've said from the beginning it seems marginal.

But if we are, you've got to work hard to convince us. We've got a buncha proven posters all disagreeing with you. You asked us for our advice, and we gave it. You said you thought we were idiots and wrong, and then expected us to just take you on your word and a few small arguments.

Either step up and prove it or don't get mad when we think we're right. Forums are a two way exchange of ideas, we're not a public service for you. Don't bitch about the quality of the advice here if you're unwilling to step up and contribute.

I honestly still think you're wrong. See my other two arguments for why, but I'm more than willing to discuss this with you civily. Maybe you can teach us a thing or two. Or maybe you're just trolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I am not just trolling. And I never called anyone an idiot. Just please spare me the drama, because this is a poker strategy forum, and not a "we like you so we'll respect your opinions now" forum.

There are a number of excellent reasons to call here, many of which I have already detailed. I *might* be in against AA or KK here, but an unknown party small stakes raiser has a wider range of hands than this. A late position raise with two decent but not overwhelming cards is a common tactic at Party I find, particularly amongst the LAG crowd common at at seemingly all limits.

I really don't have the time to do the full on math, and my apologies for that. It's just not worth it to me just to win some flamewar. A 13-1 makeup seems very long to me.

I do know that with a max stretch connector I'll flop a OESD, gutshot (which I would have the odds to play profitably), or made straight a little over 30% of the time (0.305306122). One gaps are probably more like 25%. 2 pair is is 2%. Top board pair queen is about 15% and it might be good 1/5 of the time, so maybe add 3% there. Trips is 1.35%. All in all, that right there is a 31.35% chance of a reasonable flop, so about 3.2-1. I am getting 7.5-1 on the call.

Making up the call on whiffed flops is easy when you hit the winners on decent flops. The key is avoiding trouble when second best, which I believe I am capable of doing.

I cannot see how in the hands of a decent player a call here is not +EV.

~ Tilts