Jon: But it could be you or me!

Jon posted the following on the other topics forum. I believe that it is such an important post that it should get maximum exposure. I would like a response from all that view it here. the least I would like to know is if each of you that read it have experienced something similar since beginning to play poker. I have.:


"Well, I thought I was ready. I built my bankroll up to $1400 and took my second shot at the Taj 10-20 game.........and was absolutely destroyed. I played well until I lost some big hands and tilted my money away. I love this game, I don't know if that's wrong or right, but it's true. I have a good feel for the game, and know I can be great if I can just keep my bearings, but I can't. My friends and family hate it, and I'm starting to think it's time to give it up. I have spent years being sooo passionate about this game, thinking about it and playing it all the time, that I don't know what I would do with myself without it. What do I think about? What do I do with my free time? Can I go back to just playing it lightly for recreation? The money may have been "set aside" for cards, but it is still an immense amount of cash; maybe this is the best thing that ever happened to me. 3-6 a few times a year may be a solid change from 5-10 and 10-20 3 times a month. At the same time, I don't want to lose the passion I have for this game. What do I do?


Jon"


The reason I believe that this is such an important post centers around Jon's phrase: "...was absolutley destroyed". I've been there. I've felt that way. ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED. Listen: "I have spent years being sooo passionate about this game, thinking about it and playing it all the time, that I don't know what I would do with myself without it. What do I think about? What do I do with my free time? " Jon's says this. Well I've ben there. I've felt EXACTLY the same way, exactly. I've thought exactly the same thoughts' "I have spebt years..." Yes, I have. That's why I told Jon that he is not alone. Many of you that have been posting on twoplustow for a while may remeber Andras Nagy. Andras, from his own words, literally got destroyed while playing poker. He took it so personally, losing that is, that he quit. he quit a number of times but then he quit. He told us he quit and that has been well over a year ago so whether he has quit poker or not I can't say for sure but he has quit posting here and I believe he quit poker also.


I quit when I was destroyed. I was besides myself many many times. I did not know what to do with my free time. I lost a lot of money a few times in the past. I quit. but I had a job back then so I always managed o scrape together enough now and then for a session stake. I don't get "absolutely destroyed" anymore. Not that I don't have big losing sessions but I am better able to deal with them now. My answer is simple: experience. I can offer Jon only a little bit of advice. Do not play with scared money. If you cannot afford to lose the money you are playing with don't play. Wait until you have "not necessary to live on or for my psychological well being money" and then play. Eventually you will learn to deal with the downs. Just remeber that the downs are only one third of the proble. you must also learn to deal with the "ups" and the "break evens". Both of these can also affect your mental well being. Learn to deal with the mental game. Poker is 90% mental, either through knowledge or self discipline. Both of these are enhanced through practice and expereince.


O.K. I'm done right now. I will wait to hear from others. Please give it up.


vince

Jon,


Been there, done that. I think we all have at one time or another. I think Vince makes one of the most important points; don't play with scared money. That alone is enough to destroy even the best. I'm not one of the best, (I may be one of the worst, who knows?),But if I am playing with money I feel for whatever reason, I can't lose, I almost always have a bad session. Luck of the draw? I think not. I have also tortured

myself endlessly over this game. What I did right, what I did wrong. I Know most of us have been there. Maybe take a break for awhile, but don't give up what seems to be an important part of your life. Your friends,if they are truely your friends will get over it.


All the best,


Mary

"don't give up what seems to be an important part of your life"


A very good point, Mary. Few of us would be on this website if we did not truly love to play poker. No one is going to take the time to read all this 2+2 crap unless they really like to play cards. Face it, Mason and Dave don't write books that are gripping or tremendously exciting, they are instructional books, meant to teach you how to play and think about a complex game. Therefore, if you take unreasonable risks, especially risks that could wind up taking you out of the game forever, you are playing with fire.


That said, Vince's point about playing with scared money is probably the most important thing you can learn when you are trying to learn how to "beat" the game of poker. We can all raise a draw for value, or fold 83o BTF, or slowplay flopped quads. The number of situations that come up that are truly borderline decisions are relatively few, and even when they come up, if they are truly borderline, then it really doesn't matter that much anyway which way you go. If you play the game well, you should not have to struggle too hard to make the correct moves when you are at the table. Any halfway competent player should at least be able to play with a small positive EV, at least at the lower limits.


The problem lies in the large element of luck found in these games. You can play perfectly for days, or even weeks, and still be a loser. It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. Here's where the kicker lies. Jon "built up" a stake of 1400$. Then, Jon took his meager bankroll and went to the 10-20 game at the Taj. I have played 10-20 at the Taj. In my opinion, you should buy into 10-20 with 500$, with another 500$ ready to put into action if you lose. It's a big game, the money is FAR from trivial. However, Jon's bankroll was trivial compared to the stakes. He had a good bankroll for 3-6. He had a borderline bankroll for 4-8 with a full kill. There is no way around the fact that Jon was playing with scared money. Jon was also playing with fire. He was playing with his future in the game of poker. He was playing with his emotions, taking a huge risk with money that would be very painful for him to lose. Money that constituted his entire poker world at the time. Bad JuJu.


I am not the foremost expert on poker. Nor am I the foremost expert on self-control. Nor on proper management of bankrolls. Nor do I always win. There is one thing though. I have never played with enough money to where if I lost it all, it would hurt so much that I had to quit forever. Sure, I've taken big losses. I lost 350$ in 30 minutes playing 5-10 at the trop. Got three sets and several big pairs beaten almost as soon as I sat down. TOTALLY SUCKED. Needed TWO tubes of preparation-H that day. However, my bankroll at the time was over 1500$. I took a break, cooled off, ate lunch down at Hooters. After some hot food, and some nice eye candy, I went back upstairs and bought into the 3-6 game. I never got back all my money that day, but I didn't lose enough to knock me out of the game either.


Even Super-Geniuses (such as myself and Vince) need to know their limitations. I won't ever lose so much money as to knock myself out of the game forever, I just LOVE this game too much. And I love myself too much to do that to myself. Sure, I would like to take a shot at the 20-40 game at the Mirage, or the 30-60 at the Bellagio, but I can't afford it. I would be able to buy in, but if I lost, it would hurt too much. I might have to quit playing. And that ain't an option. Don't do it. Don't risk it all, trying to run it up. Grind it out. Discipline is the difference between the good player and the winning player.


Dave in Cali.


Dave.


The man.

The philosopher.

The Super-Genius.


Cali.


Where all the pots are large, all the men are strong, and all the women are good looking.


(sorry folks, just had to toot my own horn there a little! Imagine THAT!)

Scared money? I don't know how many times in the past I've sat down in a 2-10 or 5-10 low ball(old days) with my case hundred or two and no job. Its not that hard to replace a small amt. Who knows you my take off.


I've also experienced the pain of building a 4-5k bankroll and losing it in a few days again with no job.


To Jon I say find a balance in life. If poker is your only passion I don't like your chances.

"Scared money? I don't know how many times in the past I've sat down in a 2-10 or 5-10 low ball(old days) with my case hundred or two and no job. "


So just what are you saying? You obviously were not playing with "scared" money. You said it was easy to replace so I imagine the thought of losing it either did not enter your mind nor bother you in the least. That's not scared money. Scared money is just that. The "thought" of losing it somehow has a negative influence on your behavior. You are "afraid" to lose "money" because of the either real or percieved consequences.


"To Jon I say find a balance in life. If poker is your only passion I don't like your chances."


I've seen others make similar comments to Jon. What makes anyone think that because Jon's passion is poker that he is making a mistake by focusing on that passion? I'm not so sure you are correct.


vince

"To Jon I say find a balance in life. If poker is your only passion I don't like your chances."


I've seen others make similar comments to Jon. What makes anyone think that because Jon's passion is poker that he is making a mistake by focusing on that passion? I'm not so sure you are correct.


Vince, what are the chances that the local high school basketball "star" makes the NBA, or even proball in Europe? Even the most passionate, hard hard working kid around? I don't know the exact figure, but let's go conservative and say 10,000 to 1. The NBA is also littered with ex-pro's, who played a few years, then bombed out face an uncertain future. One simply must be realistic


I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is wrong for Jon to be passionate about his poker. But he must stay focused on the reality.

"Vince, what are the chances that the local high school basketball "star" makes the NBA, or even proball in Europe?"


Extremely poor. Of course, given that, it's probably a lot lower for those that do not focus on their dreams. Look, a well rounded education and balanced life is a stock answer to young people looking for direction. And I agree with these goals. I also do not see much value of a life playing poker so I would also not recommend that he become a professional poker player. But I'm not going to advise Jon to give up his "passion" to achieve goals others may think are more valuable. That's a decision for him to make. My response was intended only to showhim that others have been in the same situation as him and still continue on playing poker. I also gave an example, Andras Nagy, where someone did not overcome the losing and quit playing.


Poker playing is a dangerous endeavor. It is an fact a gambling game. Out of control gambling is a big problem. Evidence the "Gambling Anonymous" organization whose purpose is to help people with gambling problems and or addiction. I do not recommend Jon continue to play or stop playing poker. Again that is his decision. My only goal was to point out as many pro's and con's as possible that may help him with that decision.


Vince

Jon's post is the best kind of post. Expressions of humility amongst poker players is rare I believe. For that alone, I appreciate the post.


A few observations. First, getting a $1,400 bankroll torn to shreds in a 10-20 game is not out of the realm of possibilities, at least not where I play. I would tend to not get too down on myself or my play if I went through $1,400 in 10-20. Second, if Jon' is a solid player relative to his opponents, then the $1,400 will return to his bankroll. Lastly, I don't think I want to play against Jon on his way back up!!!


Keith C.

and I'm sure Jon will recuperate in short order from his "lesson"


did you read this follow up of his first post? Here is part of it


"To High Desert Poker Man, I lost about $1000 at 10-20 and pissed away the rest at quarter blackjack, because I just didn't care at that point. The sick thing is that the $1400 IS an immense sum of cash to me, BUT it was money I had won playing cards that I would not spend on anything else. So even though I am in reality no worse off financially, it hurts worse than almost anything I've experienced. And I don't even remember playing poker with so called "real money"...In fact, I think I would be terrified to withdraw $500 out of my savings and risk it at the table. I just don't know where to begin, but I will be back...and when I'm back, my priorites will be in order I promise....more comments appreciated... "


Sounds to me like the kid already has his priorities straight as he won't touch his "reality" money to gamble with. It appears he just took a shot at a higher game, things went from uh-oh to worse and he tilted off his gambling bankroll. Well, there is a gut check, and in my view possibly the best thing that could have happened to him at his tender age, assuming he analyzes correctly his mistake(s) and learns from them. He'll be fine

Vince,


Excellent post !!! I experience a similar situation during the past Labor Day weekend. I sat at the 5-10 Hold Em table at the Taj in AC and I lost $300 in under 4 hours.

I played in very soft loose games and I still managed to have a lose. My initial instinct was to quit the game for good. I had aces cracked flopped tripps a few times and still I was outdrawn.

I even changed tables but to my dismay the tables were all loose and soft. I consider myself a tight aggressive player, and I had a hard time making the adjustment to a loose game.

I called a very good friend of mine who I consider a very sold poker player. He talked me through it and explained basically the same thing Vince did in this post.

Things happen. Luckily I was playing with money I can afford to lose.

Vince, as always excellent insight.


Michael


I also wonder if anyone ever has had an evening where you had aces or kings or queens cracked by a ragged flop.

Thanks

As long as he can allow some time for wine,women, and song, if poker is Jon's greatest passion; so what? There are worse things in this world.


Mary

Dave,

I have always enjoyed reading your posts, and you have provided me with very strong insights into the game and how to think about it. This post I think is one of the most important things I've ever read on this forum, and I wish to God I had read it before I went to the Taj last weekend. It's been 6 days since that devastating day, and I am just now able to eat solid foods again and to smile and laugh with my friends. It is tough, but you know what? It may have been the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm gonna grind my way back. I'm gonna start over. I'm taking a break from the casino till Thanksgiving, and when I go back it will be to play 3-6 and have a good time playing solid cards. And I'm not gonna lose more than I can afford to. Playing with the big boys just isn't worth it to me; I don't know, I was at this sort of place where I could go either way in poker. Keep playing small, and accumulating small wins or go for a big score and move up permanently. As you can tell, I made the wrong decision. I'm working on it =). Thanks for the smart words. And for those interested, Jon is an alias...I've actually posted on here for awhile and some of you may know me. I will see you guys again.


Jon

Poker has been my sole source of income for a number of years now. Yet I can honestly say I would not feel devastated if I were told I could no longer play the game (provided I could find another job). If I experienced a horrible unending losing streak, I believe I would quit the game before reaching the point of devastation. However, I am less likely to reach that point than most others of similar ability due to my conservative approach to bankroll management. I did not play 10-20 until I had around 10 times Jon's $1400 bankroll. I'm not claiming that my conservative approach is better...just better for me.


Nevertheless, I do know what it is like to feel lost and devastated. I spent well over a decade pursuing a career in another field until I finally came to the decision that it was not for me. It was frightening and disorienting to give that up, changing the course of my life. It was also liberating and exhilarating. It was then that I began to play poker seriously.


Times of crisis are also times of opportunity. It takes COURAGE to re-evaluate your life's priorities and implement appropriate changes. I hope Jon finds the courage.


Mike

If I ever did loose my bankroll, I would be far from broke and hopefully not devastated. This is because I define my "bankroll" as that amount of money which I think I could lose without suffering financially or emotionally devastating consequences.


...but please don't ask about my stock market bankroll! /images/frown.gif


Mike

"Nevertheless, I do know what it is like to feel lost and devastated. "


Mike,


Excellant post. I just want to focus on the above for a moment. I have felt like Jon. Not entirely because I lost a large sum of money. I had studied and studied and played and gained some experience and built a little poker bankroll then I had a comparetively huge loss. The money that I lost did not leave me broke nor did it put a huge whole in my total BR. I'll admit that it dented it quite a bit. No, the money wasn't the whole story for me. My devastation was mainly caused by the lack of confidence that goes with losing badly at something you believe you are very good at. I questioned myself and my abilities. I felt like a loser and did not see how it would ever be possible for me to win again. I had lost before but the first time I felt like Jon was because of a huge loss and a big ego. Yes, I have felt that way a number of times. I hope Jon understands that. Sometimes you go through this self analysis thing many times and quite frankly I won't be surprised if it happens a gain to me. Just disappointed.


Vince

I think it's okay to take shots at bigger games with a small bankroll provided your not prone to tilt.


It's difficult to build a decent bankroll playing only small limit.


The smaller your bankroll the less the concept of scared money should matter.


Next time you build a 1.4 bankroll consider takeing a 7-8 hundred dollar shot when conditions warrent. If you play well you don't have far to fall yet much to gain. Good Luck!

I'm of the opinion that maintaining interests outside the cardroom helps one realize their goals inside the card room.


I never intended to imply that there was anything the matter with being passionate about poker.

Jon, Vince, Mike, Mary, et. al. I just want to let you all know that I have also had several "devastating" days at the tables. The second time that I played 15-30 hold-em, I won 300 in about 1/2 hour, went looney and gave it back plus the original 600 I bought in for. It was my responsibility to hold onto at least PART of that money, but I failed to do that. After that intense $900 swing, I felt like an idiot, beat myself up for about a week and then decided that it was one of the best things that could have happened to me. I have NEVER done that again at ANY limit. In fact, after that experience I have never gotten up from the table without at least a few chips left. I have not even been "all in" at any session since that day. The experience of losing is often the first step to understanding your relationship with money, with the game and with your perception of your abilities as a poker player. If I "catch" myself losing more than my share of chips, I just GET UP (at least for awhile) and re-evaluate whether I should be playing at that time, at that limit, at that table, etc. I've learned from many years in the stock market that the "first loss" is often the "best loss". Simply put, when you are beat financially, emotionally or professionally it's best to go home and regroup. One of the HARDEST things to do is QUIT when losing. It's also hard to quit when winning. One commandment of poker (or any other game of chance) is "THOU SHALT NOT CHASE". As many of my poker pals here have said, "THOU SHALT NOT PLAY WITH SCARED MONEY". There are many other commandments which we must honor if we are to be successful in poker as well as life. Jon, please learn from your experience and rebuild from a postion of strength. Play the lower limits and regain your confidence. Keep talking to the great guys (and gals) on this website. Learn and grow. Hang in there, buddy. I'll be waiting to hear some success stories from you for many years to come.....

Good point Vince. The loss of ego generally hurts more than the loss of money. My self-esteem is most at risk when I'm not playing poker. Though I have never felt "devastated" in relation to poker, I have certainly had my confidence shaken during bad runs.


Mike

Poker babe (aka),


I found your post so valuable to this discussion that I quoted you below. hope you don't mind.


Vince


"gave it back plus the original 600 I bought in for. .......After that intense $900 swing, I felt like an idiot, beat myself up for about a week and then decided that it was one of the best things that could have happened to me"


Read.


"The experience of losing is often the first step to understanding your relationship with money, with the game and with your perception of your abilities as a poker player."


Wow! Read, now read again.


"If I "catch" myself losing more than my share of chips, I just GET UP (at least for awhile) and re-evaluate whether I should be playing at that time, at that limit, at that table, etc. "


Might want to heed.


"Simply put, when you are beat financially, emotionally or professionally it's best to go home and regroup"


Heed.


"One of the HARDEST things to do is QUIT when losing. It's also hard to quit when winning."


Known to us all but worth reading.


"Keep talking to the great guys (and gals) on this website."


Double-Heed.


vince

Vince- I don't mind at all if you quote me. We are all here to share ideas and experiences and I'm glad to contribute some "lessons learned". I consider it a compliment that you wish to share my thoughts, and I continue to look forward to your feedback. I receive great infomation and ideas from your forum and I learn something everytime I scan the posts.! Thanks, pal.

I was playing 2-4 Paradise poker with this player last night who lost two fairly tough beats and proceeded to steam away his entire two hundred dollar stake. He raised every single hand all the way to the river until it was gone. Today a friend of his told me that this "Jon" is the same person and told me to check out these posts. I won't disclose his nickname on PP out of respect for the dead but trust me when I tell you this great advice is wasted on this guy. He needs to quit playing poker. He is like a crack addict on a binge. 99% of the poker players in the world would be incapable of a tilt of this magnitude...and this just after his professed desire to "turn over a new leaf". Poker is bad for some people...this is one of them.