fold KAs Post Flop

[Poop4Munny]

any opinions on this fold?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, Hero folds.

River: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

[hemstock]

Call. You are getting 7 to 1 on your money.

[Vasquez]

First the pot is small you arent getting the price to call. Two players loved that turn card.The turn brought us the CLUB so you could also be drawing to 4 outs max not to mention if someone has KQ or AQ you are i neven worse shape. Good fold bad turn card for you /images/graemlins/frown.gif .

[KingOtter]

Plenty of odds to call, and nothing is showing that a high pair won't win.

KO

[Vasquez]

hemstock how do you call? Some of your outs could be dead? you are getting 7-1. You only have 6 outs which dont count as full outs. So you probably have 3 outs max. We arent getting the 15-1

[hemstock]

Could be...
but since the flop came rainbow i wouldnt put them on a flush draw.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
First the pot is small you arent getting the price to call. Two players loved that turn card.The turn brought us the CLUB so you could also be drawing to 4 outs max not to mention if someone has KQ or AQ you are i neven worse shape. Good fold bad turn card for you /images/graemlins/frown.gif .

[/ QUOTE ]

He's getting 8-1. Pure outs would be 6.7-1. Discount plus implied odds make it a close call... I probably would have called.

Chances of being dominated are there, by someone playing Ax or Kx, but I still think it's close. I probably would have called.

KO

[Greg J]

In my estimation, calling on the turn is slightly less than break even. You are getting 8:1. 6 outs is too generous, since you can make yr hand and still loose. But even considering you can check/fold UI the implied odds don't quite it worth the call.

In the heat of battle, I make this call closing the action. Here where I can study the hand, I think you made a good fold. I don't think making this call would be a huge money loser for you in the long run.

[beset7]

Looks fairly standard to me.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

i fold here.

[TomBrooks]

I think it would be a somewhat loose call but not terrible. There could be a flush draw out so clubs may be no good, giving you only 4 outs instead of six. Overcards are usually said to be worth only three outs on average in which case folding is good here.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
hemstock how do you call? Some of your outs could be dead? you are getting 7-1. You only have 6 outs which dont count as full outs. So you probably have 3 outs max. We arent getting the 15-1

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking? Do you seriously think that he has only 3 outs on average against 2 players? It's definitely close thogh, he probably has something like 4.5 outs on average, making this extremely close. I don't think it matters either way.

[mdplayah]

i can't believe other people's comments on this one. I fold this crap fast. As of the CO betting there is 7BB in the pot, i.e. in order to call you would need a full six outs (I really can't see my self adding more than a quarter out on implied since it is such a weak draw, maybe if i was drawing to two pair i would do that... but top pair?).

you never have the full six, even heads up. you could lose on the river, someone could counterfeit you wiping out 3 outs right there, you could be up against a slowplayed set, two clubs could be tainted, and he has an overcard that is exactly one card higher than the highest on the board /images/graemlins/confused.gif

i'm sure there are more reasons to discount, but that's just off the top of my head.

I would like to see about 17BB in the pot to call this, more if i wasn;t last to act. good fold.

[mdplayah]

sorry, just read my own post. didn't mean to sound harsh or condescending, but that's just how i feel. you guys can call it if you want though.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it would be a somewhat loose call but not terrible.

[/ QUOTE ] After reading and reflecting on mdplayah's post, I think he's more correct than what I said at first above. He said he would like to see 17BB in the pot to call this. I think I'd be comfortable with 11BB. I'm going to count my outs as 4. I think I have been a little too loose calling with overcards on the turn.

[thegoose420]

why are you checking the turn just because a Q came out? you need to bet. call a rerasie if one comes, even though i doubt it would happen.

[Bungler]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you checking the turn just because a Q came out? you need to bet. call a rerasie if one comes, even though i doubt it would happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do that?

[thegoose420]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
why are you checking the turn just because a Q came out? you need to bet. call a rerasie if one comes, even though i doubt it would happen.



Why would you do that?


[/ QUOTE ]

well, first off, i really doubt they would reraise, they will almost always fold, or rarely even call at this level.

secondly with two over cards, i count at least 4.5 outs, and even though the immediate pot odds don't look good for a raise, the implied odds look pretty good too me if i catch one of my over cards. you're going to gain one or two BB if they do have a pair of queens.

[Bungler]

I think what my point is what does a bet here accomplish? We're betting into 3 people with ace high and no draw. Getting raised here sucks. That would suggest that we are already beaten and drawing very slim on the river.

I don't think the possibility of collecting a bet on the river makes up for this possibility. Check/folding the turn seems like the correct play given the situation and the odds.

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (6 BB) SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero folds.

[/ QUOTE ]
*throws up in mouth* Call this. You still have the best hand at least 14% of the time here. That alone, is enough to call. Not only that, but your K and A outs are good most of the time.

[aK13]

I think folding/calling are approximately equal EV, but I like calling personally.

[kapw7]

Good fold. Overcards are not as good as they look when multihanded. It is very likely to be drawing dead against A7/A4/KQ etc. No way you have 6 outs here.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
why are you checking the turn just because a Q came out? you need to bet. call a rerasie if one comes, even though i doubt it would happen.



Why would you do that?


[/ QUOTE ]

well, first off, i really doubt they would reraise, they will almost always fold, or rarely even call at this level.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is untrue

[xenthebrain]

I fold the turn.

No way you are ahead here.
You might be reverse dominated by A7 or whatever.
The clubs may be tainted.

With top pair you aren't drawing somewhere near the nuts and you cannot go bonkers on the river.
There was no heavy action. You don't get great implied odds, maybe 1 BB.

In my opinion you cannot count more than 4 outs here, and even with implied odds, this is a fold.
It's pretty close though.

[mdplayah]

I love overcard chasers. It keeps the pot nice and big for when i flop my big hands!

seriously though, log onto ultimate bet tonight and just "watch" the $100-200 tables. you might change your opinion about how many outs you have in this hand. or you might not... or you might not even care....

i also thought of another great reason to discount: ace overcards are very dangerous (moreso than kings but this king is also crappy cause of the queen.) the danger is again in the counterfeit. we all know than these microfish will play any ace, even offsuited A-3 without even thinking about it! For some reason they don't play offsuited K-3 as much. With kings, they would prefer a K-3 suited as if NOW it's playable! love that!

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

$100-$200 and .50/1 have little in common.

[mdplayah]

true. but one of the major differences at those limits is that you have less people seeing the flop, therefore more outs (lower discount), yet they are STILL folding overcards.

not that anyone's reading this thread anymore anyway though.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
...but one of the major differences at those limits is that you have less people seeing the flop, therefore more outs...

[/ QUOTE ]

so what is your point? they are different games, which call for different strategies.

[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
why are you checking the turn just because a Q came out? you need to bet. call a rerasie if one comes, even though i doubt it would happen.



Why would you do that?


[/ QUOTE ]

well, first off, i really doubt they would reraise, they will almost always fold, or rarely even call at this level.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is so untrue

[/ QUOTE ]

[newfant]

I like a call here. You may still be ahead of the bettor and the caller.

[therockofgibraltar]

I think this can go either way. I would probably call but folding ain't that bad IMO because pot is quite small and you must discount A /images/graemlins/club.gif and K /images/graemlins/club.gif a little bit.