General question about ethics

[Schmed]

I saw a post where someone asked about the ethics of a certain call he made then I just read an article at Poker Pages where someone else questioned his ethics. They both actually contemplated splitting the pot with a guy. I consider myself and anyone that knows me would agree that I am fair and a gentleman to everyone. I am very competitve but I always play by the rules. People I don't know I treat with courtsey and respect until given a reason to treat them differently. Correct me if I am wrong however in the poker/casino games we play cards speak. If you muck your hand regardless of what I said, you lose, I win. Not that I would intentionally mislead anyone but if I said aloud that I had made a straight and you mucked because of it then you lose. I don't even have to show my hand if you muck and didn't pay to see it. If you muck and paid you still lose. My understanding once you muck your cards are dead so it wouldn't matter what I had.

In my opinion if you muck your hand you have nothing to complain about. Even in the situation where the guy said "I'll play the board" and the board was a straight yet house rules said you still had to show your hand.

Now I'm new to casino poker but I find it bad form to not show your hand in a show down. I know why people do it but to me you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to hide what you bet with then don't expect to get anything in return when you muck on purpose.

Am I wrong in this thought??

[Ray Zee]

you are right partly. you still need to do whats right and not what the rules let you get by with. if you miss call your hand and someone has paid to see it and then mucks you need to give thought about whether you want the pot. you have to do what is right depending on the situation.
if i called flush and the guy mucked and i had a straight i may keep the pot. but if i couldnt bet the board hardly i dont feel entitled to win. as then winning is because of the false call.
if you are a poker player the world is small and what you do will follow you all through life. you may not care.

[Schmed]

I understand what you are saying and certainly I would hate to have a bad "Karma" type of thing hanging over my head. A couple of things here about the situation where you mistakenly miscall your hand. Note I say mistakenly because in that case there is no malice intended. The person that miscalls their hand as a tactic is a dirt bag.

First of all the person that mucked their hand is at fault in my mind because they never should have mucked. Most of you probably don't see it this way but I find it bad form to not show your cards in a show down. Clearly this isn't cheating but to me at least it's bad form. If the person shows his cards then there isn't an issue. The dealer sees the winner and calls it.

The other problem I have is much like the guy with the article at poker pages what are you supposed to do? Noone is to say what that guy had. (Obviously if it is someone you play with all the time the situation is different than if it is someone you don't know). The man who wrote the article, (and I can't think of his name off of the top of my head), made some intertesting points in that regard.

I guess in the situation that was talked about in the Holdm forum where you both are playing the board and the guy mucks there may be more of a reason to share.

It's an interesting question really. I wonder if ethics is really the right word. I mean it's ethical to play by the rules but sometimes it's uncool.

[Nick B.]

Just stop wasting everybody's time calling your hand and just show it. If you are last to bet on the river just show your hand. It would not only speed up the games, but it would prevent all these situations.

[Schmed]

Actually I agree with what you are saying. That was kind of my point when I said that I think it's bad form to muck rather when you're supposed to.

Personally I always show my hand

[snakehead]

I didn't see the post you are referring to, but I wanted to let you know that just because a hand has been mucked does not mean it is dead. I have seen hands retrieved from the muck many times in instances like this. it depends on the rules of the cardroom.

also, the only difference I can see between someone who intentionally miscalls his hand and someone who does it by mistake is that the former will definitely keep the pot, and the latter would most likely give it up if he didn't have the best hand. if you called a straight and didn't even have a pair, then you would have to assume that the hand that called your last bet had you beat.