AK fold...but the flop was so pretty [Archive]

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 05:52 PM

Villain is OK from what I've seen (no donkish behavior but that doesn't mean he's not a donk).

My thinking was this is either a huge reraise or a quiet fold...

The minraise set off some warning bells...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t805)
MP3 (t980)
CO (t400)
Button (t865)
SB (t1215)
Hero (t770)
UTG (t925)
UTG+1 (t1355)
MP1 (t685)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 raises to t60, 5 folds, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t135) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t90, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t225

Geordie Ramone

07-06-2005, 05:58 PM

I dont see how you can consider a reraise when you didnt reraise preflop. Easy easy fold

octaveshift

07-06-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

Isura

07-06-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you mean we are out of position, so we might want to reraise to make postflop play a bit clearer.

bigt439

07-06-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. You have AK. A reraise is in order, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very surprised a reraise is being considered here. That leaves you out of position with about 20% of your stack in the pot with a hand that will miss more often than it will hit. It's going to be very hard, and probably dumb, to continuation bet considering the donks that could be around min raising at this level and their ridiculous calling ranges. Not to mention that over half your stack will be in after a continuation bet. Why not smooth call and be able to trap on a safe a high or k high flop. Check raising the flop or turn on something like that would be a good way to get alot of money in. You get away very cheap when you miss too. I think this is a clear smoothcall. I also don't even understand this post. What else do you want to do on the flop?

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 06:38 PM

Good points...

I was just interested to see if anyone would consider playing the flop, and I figured the only way anyone would play it would be to raise it.

How would you have played it if AK reraised preflop?

citanul

07-06-2005, 06:42 PM

in the future you might also want to note the buyin level of the hands you post.

i push preflop here.

my hand is very good, so i want to raise, and is pointed out, a raise that is smaller will leave you out of position post flop with a significant chunk of chips in the middle. and given that you're at an 800 chip game, you're going to get called here often by a worse hand when you push.

citanul

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 06:44 PM

You push a stack into a 100 chip pot??? That seems pretty donkish...the blinds are T30. Is the reasoning here that any raise leaves you pot committed? Isn't that a better argument for just calling here?

The buy-in was 20s...I thought I posted it but I guess I didn't.

citanul

07-06-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You push a stack into a 100 chip pot??? That seems pretty donkish...the blinds are T30. Is the reasoning here that any raise leaves you pot committed? Isn't that a better argument for just calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i push here, with most likely the best hand, for the chips my opponent has left, if he decides to play the hand with me. for the reasons i stated in my previous post. i don't think that that post was in any way ambiguous about why i push.

why not call? because pushing is better. 2/3 of the time you're going to miss he flop if you just call, and then you'll have to be either folding or "getting creative" as it were. why do that when you're starting the hand with likely the best hand?

it's entirely possible that many players would play this hand post calling preflop in a -cEV fashion, while pushing preflop i believe to be +cEV. that's the brunt of it.

the idea that "i don't want to put my stack in there early with a small pot" is so entirely flawed it's not funny. if you can get some idiot to put all their chips in there with you early as a significant dog, you should be doing it, often. at the lower buyin tournaments, you should be able to do this often. players who complain of having a short stack too often near the bubble are victims of this "don't bust out" mentality.

it is bad.

citanul

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 07:00 PM

Wow, this is really interesting.

You are right that a lot of people are donks at the beginning...but more often than not these people are instacalling with low-mid pocketpair where you would be a slight dog...

Also, what about Sklanksy's point in TPFAP that in tourneys you should wait out marginal EV situations for all your chips until a better one comes along? That is what I mean by pulling a move like this early in the tourney...

V. interesting point though.

freemoney

07-06-2005, 07:03 PM

i raise to some obviously committing number then push any flop, you actually get some FE, make it like 400 and push any flop.

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 07:05 PM

K, I will push reraise AK from now on and see how that goes...thanks for the input.

donny5k

07-06-2005, 07:07 PM

How is this better than just pushing?

pergesu

07-06-2005, 07:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are right that a lot of people are donks at the beginning...but more often than not these people are instacalling with low-mid pocketpair where you would be a slight dog...

Also, what about Sklanksy's point in TPFAP that in tourneys you should wait out marginal EV situations for all your chips until a better one comes along?

[/ QUOTE ]
They'll be instacalling with A4s too.

gildwulf

07-06-2005, 07:08 PM

Yea I just thought of that after I posted.

pergesu

07-06-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i raise to some obviously committing number then push any flop, you actually get some FE, make it like 400 and push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd rather just push. These guys don't think a raise commits you...and when the flop comes Q84, you get pwned by his Q9o. I'd much rather get my money in as a favorite than hope the other guy misses a flop. Plus they'll fold to a big preflop raise really often anyway, so you usually just pick up the pot.

Slim Pickens

07-06-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what about Sklanksy's point in TPFAP that in tourneys you should wait out marginal EV situations for all your chips until a better one comes along? That is what I mean by pulling a move like this early in the tourney...

[/ QUOTE ]

Read Sklansky's section in TPFAP on playing AK. I was about to make the "push" argument, but that's been taken care of in more competent fashion now anyway.

SlimP

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 12:24 AM

???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

lastchance

07-07-2005, 12:31 AM

zzzz... You know this sucks. Pop it to t100 and go from there.

junkmail3

07-07-2005, 05:57 PM

This hand has no similarities with your original hand. (Just pointing this out because you linked here in another post)

bigt439

07-07-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo this push. You're better than that.

Slim Pickens

07-07-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo this push. You're better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that. Nice push.

tminus

07-07-2005, 06:58 PM

I think youre being passive here man, reraise preflop

That flop is as pretty as a dogs prick (what?) but the good news is that its that ugly for him too so bet half the pot and fold if he reraises. Taking this initiative may win the hand in two ways (1) by him gettin ascared and folding (2) by him calling and then getting your miracle card.

but dont ever ever EVER EVEEEEERRR check fold...

seriously, you have a 10% chance of hitting that beloved straight on the turn...

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 07:35 PM

I just posted this hand to get a rise out of you guys:)

Thanks for the input

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???????????????

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t795)
BB (t1125)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t675)
MP1 (t755)
MP2 (t720)
MP3 (t820)
Hero (t775)
Button (t850)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises all-in, 4 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: t67.50

[/ QUOTE ]

Boo this push. You're better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Screw that. Nice push.

[/ QUOTE ]

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 07:46 PM

Slim Pickens

07-07-2005, 08:18 PM

Serious about this... if I remember Sklansky's argument correctly it goes something like this. With less than about 20BB in your stack, if you go all-in holding AK and get called by anything that's not AA or KK you're coming out ahead on average. Even against KK you have a not insignificant number of outs. Only against AA are you really in trouble. Just the fact that you hold one A and one K cuts in half the number of hands your opponent could have that are AA or KK (which is why the same "push" argument can't be made for AQ), so you will always have correct odds to make this move. It is probably a -cEV move, but cEV~=$EV in a tournament.

I've been jamming AKo in the early rounds pretty much every time I've been in pot but not first in, and I can't think of when it hasn't paid off.

SlimP

bluewilde

07-07-2005, 08:24 PM

Well it's that embarassing time to betray my ignorance (granted I think we're well past that point by now).

After the strong arguments for pushing preflop with the first hand, why is the push in the second so atrocious? I see the differences (position, multiple limpers v. heads up and a raise etc.) but don't understand why they change your line. Can someone walk me through this...with small words and pictures...maybe a whiteboard...sock puppets perhaps?

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 08:26 PM

I agree...I posted this hand in a facetious attempt to ask this exact question. (Edit: and get a rise out of you guys).

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Serious about this... if I remember Sklansky's argument correctly it goes something like this. With less than about 20BB in your stack, if you go all-in holding AK and get called by anything that's not AA or KK you're coming out ahead on average. Even against KK you have a not insignificant number of outs. Only against AA are you really in trouble. Just the fact that you hold one A and one K cuts in half the number of hands your opponent could have that are AA or KK (which is why the same "push" argument can't be made for AQ), so you will always have correct odds to make this move. It is probably a -cEV move, but cEV~=$EV in a tournament.

I've been jamming AKo in the early rounds pretty much every time I've been in pot but not first in, and I can't think of when it hasn't paid off.

SlimP

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this account for the lost chips if you had raised like, say, 100 and people called and you pushed any flop?

lastchance

07-07-2005, 08:31 PM

Umm... There's only so little in the pot? T70 in the pot is not worth moving in t800. If it was L3, there'd be t225 in the pot, where I would be all for pushing.

And people advocating pushing the first hand are insane. Raising is good, pushing is terrible. I raise both to t100 and go from there.

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 08:33 PM

Didn't citanul address this earlier in the thread?

[ QUOTE ]
the idea that "i don't want to put my stack in there early with a small pot" is so entirely flawed it's not funny. if you can get some idiot to put all their chips in there with you early as a significant dog, you should be doing it, often. at the lower buyin tournaments, you should be able to do this often. players who complain of having a short stack too often near the bubble are victims of this "don't bust out" mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, thanks everyone so far for a v. interesting discussion.

lastchance

07-07-2005, 08:39 PM

Yeah.... If the table sucks that much, sure. A 60/40 flip would be really nice. But raising normally is going to often be better, especially if you can play postflop.

And of course, you have position here. If you play postflop at all, you will realize how much that matters. You can get a lot more free cards, you're going to be bluffed a lot less.

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah.... If the table sucks that much, sure. A 60/40 flip would be really nice. But raising normally is going to often be better, especially if you can play postflop.

And of course, you have position here. If you play postflop at all, you will realize how much that matters. You can get a lot more free cards, you're going to be bluffed a lot less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

tminus

07-07-2005, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just posted this hand to get a rise out of you guys:)

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didnt...
Seriously man. The blind aggression that you use in this hand as well as the QQ hand that JayKon posted tonight is a real leak.

gildwulf

07-07-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just posted this hand to get a rise out of you guys:)

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didnt...
Seriously man. The blind aggression that you use in this hand as well as the QQ hand that JayKon posted tonight is a real leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already admitted I suck with AK and this is my big leak. You are wrong about the QQ hand, so sorry.

J Chap

07-07-2005, 11:10 PM

Does pushing this pre-flop have no effect on your table image? Will people not call you with weaker hands further down the road in this tourney? I personally like earning more respect for when I go to steal the L4 and L5 blinds.

Or does table image not matter that much at the 20's...

JChaP