Live 6/12 Dream Table

[beta1607]

6/12 at Hollywood Park. Played this a couple weeks ago so some details may be a little off.

Table is amazingly loose with 8 of the players calling multiple preflop raises with any two suited and any two connected and most one gappers. Preflop raises get no respect.

7 limpers to me and I get black AA in the BB and check.

flop 459 two /images/graemlins/heart.gif
checked to the CO who bets SB calls everyone calls

Turn T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Checked to CO who bets, SB calls I raise get 4 callers.

River 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
I check UTG bets two callers CO raises I fold

I played this session after rereading a section in HEPFAP about loose games. The reason I didn't raise preflop is it wouldn't fold anyone and could make their chasing on later streets more correct. Did I apply the concept correctly?

[shant]

You raise preflop for value.

[meep_42]

You had aces and you only bet or raised once in the hand. That's really, really bad.

-d

[beta1607]

I understand raising for value but I guess my question is wouldn't raising preflop bloat the pot and make the fish chasing correct?

[Paxosmotic]

In a low limit hold em game, there is no plausible scenario in which limping with two aces is correct. Your equity against 7 limpers is so staggering one can barely fathom it. You're up against hands such as K4o and J3s, you must raise for value here.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand raising for value but I guess my question is wouldn't raising preflop bloat the pot and make the fish chasing correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it would. Good for them. If you have the odds to chase a 35% draw, meaning I'll win the other 65% of the time, I will push all-in every single time whether you have the odds or not. 65% of the time I'm going to make a pretty penny. Who really cares what odds you're giving them, you've got aces for christ's sake, what are you waiting for?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand raising for value but I guess my question is wouldn't raising preflop bloat the pot and make the fish chasing correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

With 8 people in the pot, it's going to be correct for them to see the river with any two cards that hit the board at all, most of the time.

-d

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand raising for value but I guess my question is wouldn't raising preflop bloat the pot and make the fish chasing correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
They're going to chase correctly or not. Your hand will hold up against the limpers a good percentage of the time. You raise for value. Also, why did you check-call the flop if you were worried about protecting your hand. You should have check-raised the CO if you are worried about fish chasing.

[Derek in NYC]

You miss a ton of value if you don't raise aces preflop with 8 limpers. On your luckiest days, somebody wiseguy decides to limp reraise, in which case you bring it in for a cap. Big pairs from the blinds after a bunch of limpers are always hard to play--just raise for value, and figure out the best way to protect your hand once you've seen the texture of the flop.

[beta1607]

I didn't raise the flop because I was waiting for a big bet street. I thought I had made the right play at the time but have been questioning it a lot and I guess it was not correct.

When would it be correct to apply the concept?

[beta1607]

[ QUOTE ]
With 8 people in the pot, it's going to be correct for them to see the river with any two cards that hit the board at all, most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise the flop because I was waiting for a big bet street. I thought I had made the right play at the time but have been questioning it a lot and I guess it was not correct.

When would it be correct to apply the concept?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're referring of course to Two Overpair Hands and giving incorrect odds to draws? There are simply too many bets in this pot to successfully pull that off here. You're just not going to be able to scare anybody on a draw out of this pot, small bet, big bet, or kill bet. It's a great concept but it won't apply here because the pot is too large.

Edit : You asked for when it might be correct to wait until the turn. Look for a smaller pot with a vulnerable hand (aces definitely qualifies). By waiting for a safe turn you effectively cut each draw's odds by half (one card to go instead of two) while at the same time doubling what they must pay to see the river.

[private joker]

On the flop you're in a good spot for check-raising. I don't mind checking to see where the bet comes from, but once it's a LP bet and one caller after him, you need to raise and charge the field with 2 cold. That way you fold hands that might be correctly calling on 4- and 5-outers.

[The_Curtain]

As said above, you have such a huge equity edge that you MUST exploit it pre-flop. In a loose game where many players are playing too many hands and going too far, the're not worried about pot / implied / effective odds, most are there to gamble. If you are against thinking players than there can be an arguement to be made that raising pre-flop will give the proper odds to your opponents to draw to something like an inside or two pair. This is not one of those. Even against thinking players your edge is too large to forgo.

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand raising for value but I guess my question is wouldn't raising preflop bloat the pot and make the fish chasing correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your goal in poker is not to make them play incorrectly. Your goal is to make the most money. Fish chase regardless of odds anyways. Raise because every dollar that goes in preflop makes you money, as you are holding the absolute PF nuts and every hand is paying to chase you.

~ Tilts

[private joker]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />


Your goal in poker is not to make them play incorrectly. Your goal is to make the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way to make the most money is when your opponents make more mistakes than you do. Exploiting situations where your opponent has to fold or make an unprofitable call is the essence of winning poker. So I don't really know what you mean.

Also, I'm amazed to see yet another post from you that recommends complete and total unchecked aggression at all times. Now I now how to impress you in any advice situation: raise! raise! raise! bet! bet! raise! reraise!

(Disclaimer: OP not raising AA preflop is very bad)

[TiltsMcFabulous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Your goal in poker is not to make them play incorrectly. Your goal is to make the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way to make the most money is when your opponents make more mistakes than you do. Exploiting situations where your opponent has to fold or make an unprofitable call is the essence of winning poker. So I don't really know what you mean.

Also, I'm amazed to see yet another post from you that recommends complete and total unchecked aggression at all times. Now I now how to impress you in any advice situation: raise! raise! raise! bet! bet! raise! reraise!

(Disclaimer: OP not raising AA preflop is very bad)

[/ QUOTE ]

"Complete and total unchecked aggression" yes ... WITH ACES PREFLOP. Not "at all times". And I don't think my posts have any record at all of suggesting complete and total aggression at all times (i.e., heedless aggression) in any case.

With respect to my comments about the difference between trying to make your opponents play bad and winning money ... here is the explanation:

By attempting to manipulate the pot size so that it remains SMALLER while you are AHEAD merely to make the fishy chasers make a "mistake" by calling is a clear example of trying to make your opponents play incorrectly instead of trying to win the most money. When you are ahead and you know you are ahead, you put money in, particularly when you are against weak competition who rarely fold regardless of odds anyways. You *want* chasers in a big pot with aces, every time. That's what I meant.

~ Tilts

[JacksonTens]

Perhaps if you look at it6 like this it will be easier. Like you said there were seven players to the flop, if you each had equal hands you would each have a 14% chance of winning. Fortunately for you you had AA's which is alot better than average, thus you have well over 14% chance of winning, when you have a large edge such as this you should raise. Except in some situations of course such as slowplaying, or those tricky turn plays.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif