What do you defend a TAG UTG raise with HU?

[kurosh]

A good TAG raises UTG. His PFR is whatever the standard TAG is for full games, 11%, I think? I dunno. I don't play full much anymore.

It's folded to you in the BB. What do you defend with and how do you play it postflop?

The more I think about it, the more I think you're completely dicked unless you have a big hand like AA-JJ or AK.

[CallMeIshmael]

How many hands have we played with this TAG?


I think the degree to which we know his postflop tendancies changes things a lot

[kurosh]

He's good enough to play pretty close to optimal poker. If you hit a set or another big hand, you're not getting more than 2-3BB out of him, even if he has an overpair. He plays overcards well and will occasionally bluff-raise with them if you seem to be playing back at him too much.

I'm thinking about how you could play small pocket pairs... the only good line I can think of is call/call/check-fold or call/call/CR if you have a set or, if he doesn't bet the turn, lead the river.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
A good TAG raises UTG. His PFR is whatever the standard TAG is for full games, 11%, I think? I dunno. I don't play full much anymore.

It's folded to you in the BB. What do you defend with and how do you play it postflop?

The more I think about it, the more I think you're completely dicked unless you have a big hand like AA-JJ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's kind of like saying to someone "I'm about to smash you with a brick, where would you like me to hit you?" No matter what you choose you're in a world of hurt. I'll give it a try...

AA-TT, AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs, and AKo. That's about the top 70% of hands that a TAG will raise UTG, so I think on the whole we'll fare well if we play solidly post flop.

Changing my range slightly : give me AA-TT, AKs, AQs, and AKo. That's about the top 50% of hands, which should give us a solid advantage post flop in what is bound to become a chess match.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
If you hit a set or another big hand, you're not getting more than 2-3BB out of him, even if he has an overpair. He plays overcards well and will occasionally bluff-raise with them if you seem to be playing back at him too much.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pardon me, but these statements are inconsistent. If your opponent is aggressive enough to bluff-raise when you seem to be playing back at him, then you're going to make more than 2-3BB when you make a set and he has an overpair.

At any rate, as for the actual question...
What hands do you put UTG on? I would normally say 11% is probably pairs T and up (maybe 99 and 88), AK-AJs, AK-AQo. Maybe some weaker hands like AJo, ATs, KQany.
Most of the time he's on unpaired high cards and you're getting 3-1, so you can defend with a reasonably broad range of cards. I normally play any pair and many suited broadways, including hands like QJs and JTs. I shy away from heavily dominated hands like AJ and AT.

However, it appears from your posts that you're convinced this guy will outplay you postflop. If this is the case, then you probably need to tighten up, maybe as far as pairs and AK.

[kurosh]

The thing is, his position on you is a huge advantage. At a maximum, you're probably only going to get 5BB out of him and that's only when he has an overpair, you've hit a set and he's being aggressive. (lead turn, 3-bet).

Any pair does *NOT* have equity against that range of hands. I ran it through pokerstove and (off the top of my head) it's 40% for 22 up to 43% for 99. You're going to have to somehow know when he's on unpaired high cards and when he has an overpair because you're not going to hit your set very often. Maybe just go to showdown whenever the flop doesn't have an A or K?

[sy_or_bust]

Depends somewhat on his preflop range (i.e. 88? 99? KQ? AJ?). In any case, I take my 3-1 immediate odds with a lot of good fit or fold hands. I also play looser blinds than many posters.

Be wary of Pokerstove here - equity is not a great measure of profitability here.

Any pair (cautiously. 40% equity is profitable here, BTW, and especially so if you can identify his overpairs)
76s+
97s+
sometimes Q9s/KTs, more often AJs.
rarely ATs
AQo+ (will he raise AJ here?)

[Jeff W]

Any pair, any two suited cards 9 or higher, AKo and AQo.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
76s+
97s+

[/ QUOTE ]
That's REALLY loose, and I hate to ask such a broad question, but could you elaborate a little on why you'd call with those hands as well as what kinds of flops you wouldn't mind seeing?

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
Re: What do you defend a TAG UTG raise with HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, a fold in the conditions you describe.

[Mike Gallo]

I would fold anything but a premium hand.

The more I think about it, the more I think you're completely dicked unless you have a big hand like AA-JJ or AK

After this many posts I would hope you would /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sy_or_bust]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
76s+
97s+

[/ QUOTE ]
That's REALLY loose, and I hate to ask such a broad question, but could you elaborate a little on why you'd call with those hands as well as what kinds of flops you wouldn't mind seeing?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not so bad. These hands are 2-1 dogs against a UTG range, and very easy to play postflop. You will be getting 5-1 when you flop a draw, and expect to win an extra bet when you hit. If your opponent knows you play these hands (rarely applies online), you also have the opportunity to occassionally bluff and semi-bluff with extra fold equity against A-high hands. Often you can do this anyway (i.e. looking for flops with 2 or more of J/T/9/8). Marginal hands, for sure, but not crazy. 65s, 86s, etc. are also playable.

[cnfuzzd]

I try to rarely let the tags sit on my immediate left.

I would defend with a pair, AQo, AJs, and pairs below tens. I reraise AK and the premuim pairs. AJs wasnt really thrown in till i started understanding that tag utg will raise 88 and 99.

peace

john nickle

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to rarely let the tags sit on my immediate left.


[/ QUOTE ]

What do u find to be optimal? While I like tighter players I my left I much rather a weak-tight than a tag. But most of the time me and another TAG will tangle is usually on blind steals.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
I would defend with a pair, AQo, AJs, and pairs below tens. I reraise AK and the premuim pairs. AJs wasnt really thrown in till i started understanding that tag utg will raise 88 and 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call all the way with AJs if an A flops and you have no redraw? Why don't you call with AJo if your reason for adding AJs is that UTG will raise with 88 and 99?

What about pairs below tens?

If his lightest hand is 88, what do you do with pairs that don't flop sets?

Do you call down with unimproved TT? If an A or K flops?

How do you decide whether he is on a small pair, a big pair, or broadways?

It seems to me like this range is too wide, unless you have a very specific post flop plan.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would defend with a pair, AQo, AJs, and pairs below tens. I reraise AK and the premuim pairs. AJs wasnt really thrown in till i started understanding that tag utg will raise 88 and 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call all the way with AJs if an A flops and you have no redraw? Why don't you call with AJo if your reason for adding AJs is that UTG will raise with 88 and 99?

What about pairs below tens?

If his lightest hand is 88, what do you do with pairs that don't flop sets?

Do you call down with unimproved TT? If an A or K flops?

How do you decide whether he is on a small pair, a big pair, or broadways?

It seems to me like this range is too wide, unless you have a very specific post flop plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

play good poker?

sometimes i do have to go with plan B, which is to get there...

peace

john nickle

[Brian]

How big is his range of UTG raising hands? Some TAG's will raise some or all of these hands UTG, depending on the game: AJo, KQo, ATs, KJs, 99, JTs. Others will raise only AA-TT, AK(s), AQ(s), and KQs. Either way the question is a mathematical one: put your opponent on a range of hands, factor in the odds you are getting from the pot as well as your bad position, and go from there.

Unless I know otherwise, I assume most UTG raises mean a big pair or a big Ace. Despite the odds you are getting from the pot, your being out of position combined with how big of a struggle it is for two undercards to overcome an overpair dictates that you must play very tight. Thus, I normally re-raise with AA-JJ and AK(s), and call with TT and AQs. I sometimes call with AQo as well.

-Brian

[kurosh]

If you call with TT, you should call with all pairs. 99 or 22 doesn't make a big difference here. See why?

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, his position on you is a huge advantage. At a maximum, you're probably only going to get 5BB out of him and that's only when he has an overpair, you've hit a set and he's being aggressive. (lead turn, 3-bet).

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, let's run through the math of just playing for a set. You are paying 1 sb to see the flop. You'll flop a set one in 8.5 times. You need to regain 7.5sb when you flop a set and there's already 1.75 sbs in the pot, so you need to net ~6 sbs or 3bbs when you hit. Against an aggressive player, just waiting for a set and folding all other flops should be roughly a breakeven play.

But you should be able to make calling w/ pairs solidly profitable by continuing on flops that are good for you. Remember, this guy has 2 big cards most of the time. If the flop comes all non-broadway, you are going to be ahead way over half the time. Given the hand ranges in my original post, even if the flop comes with a Q,J, or T, you're still going to be ahead more than 50% of the time.

To paraphrase a thread on this exact topic from a few months ago, your reverse implied odds do not overcome your current situation of 3-1 pot odds and a made hand.

[Brian]

From twodimes.net:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
2s 2c 896216 52.34 805529 47.04 10559 0.62 0.526
Ac Kh 805529 47.04 896216 52.34 10559 0.62 0.474

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts Tc 970575 56.68 735039 42.93 6690 0.39 0.569
Ac Kh 735039 42.93 970575 56.68 6690 0.39 0.431

I do agree that if we know for certain that he is only raising AA-JJ and AK/AQ, then it doesn't make much of a difference whether we defend TT or 99, 99 or 88, etc. But I've never been confident enough in my reads to put my opponent on a specific range of hands. In other words, I feel I'd be giving up too much by folding the 6th best hand in Hold'em before the Flop getting 3:1, even if it will sometimes put me in an uncomfortable situation post-Flop.

The same could be said of 99, but 99 doesn't occasionally catch people in a dominating position as often as TT does.

-Brian

[IndieMatty]

Anything playable.

[SeaEagle]

What are you trying to show with the two-dimes stats? I believe the difference between 22 and TT is accounted for by the extra straights TT makes and those very rare cases where the board makes two pair. I would expect 66 and TT to be almost exactly equal.

In regards to this thread, a predictable UTG raiser (as represented by the OP) is going to almost always have two cards T or higher. From a practical standpoint, the difference between 99 and 22 is negligible.

[Brian]

Kurosh said that if I was calling with TT, I may as well call with any pair 99-22. I was using two-dimes to show that as you go further down in pocket pairs, you actually do lose a bit of value.

[ QUOTE ]
From a practical standpoint, the difference between 99 and 22 is negligible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree here, but I never said I would call with 99. Only TT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[mtdoak]

Ugh, I've never understood this concept. Why are you defending your blind when he's not trying to steal your blind....he's raising for value. Your getting 3.5 to 1 on your call...only call with hands that you will be less than a 2-1 dog on against the TAGs range of hands (AK-AJ, KQ, AA-88)

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree here, but I never said I would call with 99. Only TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. From a practical standpoint, the difference between TT and pairs down to about 55 or 44 is negligible. The only hands villian should have that might make a difference is TT and maybe, if he had a wild hair up his butt, AT or A9.

With all these medium/small pairs, a no-broadway flop is looking pretty good for you, 1 low broadway is still OK, and 2 broadways means you'll soon be mucking.

[kurosh]

This reminded me of a post I made a while ago (here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=172684 9&Forum=f4&Words=-re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=500&Main=1726849&Search=t rue&where=bodysub&Name=14533&daterange=1&newerval= 1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1 726849)) about coldcalling with position against EP raisers with pocket pairs. I've changed it a bit for this situation.

Say he raises AA-TT, AK-AJ, KQ from EP. I'm going to group them into two sections. There are 30 combinations of pocket pairs. There are 64 combinations of ace-something or king-something.

(30/94) = 31.9% chance of being a big PP
(64/94) = 68.1% chance of being a big ace/king

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 57.7215 % [ 00.57 00.00 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, AKo-AJo, KQo }
Hand 2: 42.2785 % [ 00.42 00.00 ] { 99-22 }


You're getting 3.5:1. (1/3.5) = .29.

Equity wise, you're making money on your preflop call.

Now some stipulations for the flop:

Roughly 11.75% of the time, you will flop a set. As a conservative estimate, your average gain for this will be something like (1.75BB PF + 2BB post-flop) and to make it even = +4BB.
.1175*4 = +.47BB

Roughly 57% of the time, there will be an A, K, Q or J on the flop. Fold.
.57*-.5 = -.285BB

31.25% left. The board has come rags. About 2/3rds of the time they will have overcards. The flop is always bet. Sometimes they will check behind on the turn. Sometimes they will check behind on the river. You should probably lead the river regardless of what they do on the turn. Let say you make, on average, the same as a set: 4BB.

20.83% of the time with the overcards vs your pair, you will be a 70/30 favorite.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=775552
pokenum -h 7c 7s - ah kh -- 2c 5h 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2c 9d 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 7c 695 70.20 295 29.80 0 0.00 0.702
Ah Kh 295 29.80 695 70.20 0 0.00 0.298

.7*.2083*4BB - .3*.2083*2.5BB = +.427BB

10.42% of the time, you will be up against an overpair. Villain is a 90/10 favorite.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=775553
pokenum -h 7c 7s - ah ad -- 2c 5h 9d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 2c 9d 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 7c 99 10.00 891 90.00 0 0.00 0.100
Ad Ah 891 90.00 99 10.00 0 0.00 0.900

.1*.1042*4BB - .9*.1042*2.5BB = -.193BB

.47-.285+.427-.193 = +.419BB

Some of my estimates are a bit conservative and one or two might be too high but I think this is pretty close. It's +EV to call and continue with a set or when there are no face cards or aces.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
the difference between TT and pairs down to about 55 or 44 is negligible.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are confident enough in your read to put your opponent on a specific range of hands here, say, only AA-JJ, AK, AQ, then I agree 100%. I mean, if we are dealing with specific ranges of hands, then the hands you call with from the BB in this situation is purely a mathematical question.

But, at the tables, I am never confident enough to say my UTG TAG opponent would only raise AA-JJ, AK, AQ. So that's why I call with TT: I feel I'd be giving up way too much folding it if theres a chance my opponent was also raising hands like 99, 88, ATs, JTs, etc. And, it's not that farfetched to assume the TAG would be raising those hands UTG: I often raise 99 and ATs UTG, and if the table is very loose, I would raise JTs as well.

-Brian