Weak tight check

[gergery]

PLO8 $200, full ring

EP limps – he later folds
MP limps ($150) – played a bunch with him, he’s bit loose, losing player, bit of call station
MP+2 limps ($500) – solid player, is being table coach, has turned over only good hands
I limp on Button ($250) – I’ve been moderately tight preflop, and loose aggressive postflop
BB checks

I have 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

$9 in pot and Flop comes A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
All check

Turn is 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
I now have nutlow and bottom set, and am happy.
However, BB pots it for $9.
MP/LooseCally min-raises to $18
MP+2 Solid player min-raises to $27

With 3 people liking their hand here I am fairly certain someone has 23xx possibly with diamonds/set, and someone has nutflush.

Call or Raise?

--Greg

[Wintermute]

Personally I'd raise the max. It's possible that nobody has the nut flush, and you may be able to get the weaker flushes to fold and end up quartering the other potential 23. Or it could be that BB has 25 and bet out with the 2nd nut low, then got raised by two flushes. Anyway, there are a lot of ways good things can happen to you if you get max money in on this hand.

The only way something bad happens is if you raise the max and the only caller (raiser) has 23 with a flush. And even then you have the boat redraw for the river. As for higher set, if someone has 23 and higher set, that's just tough luck.

But I've seen too many crapass hands get shown down in situations like this not to shovel my money in two-fisted.

[JoshuaMayes]

I would max-raise. I want to get rid of any non-nut flushes and 1/4 or 1/6 the nut low holders. Not many hands can withstand any serious heat on that board, so I want to apply maximum pressure. Hopefully, someone was "slowplaying" the nut flush and I can get heads up with him and freeroll his stack.

[emptyshell]

I guess I disagree with the other posters here. You have a read on the second min-raiser to be a solid player. What kind of hands would he put in a second min-raise with? A non-nut flush seems unlikely. Could he have the nut low with some high worse than yours? Maybe, but a good player would either be trying to play a small pot with such a hand (by calling) or drive people out (by raising big). The only type of hand where his play makes sense is a monster: nut flush or nut low + decent flush. Making the assumption that you would not be able to get BB or MP to fold the nut low, a big reraise is just asking to lose a lot of money.

I would call, hoping to bring others along with crappy hands and play a smaller pot. If the board pairs, or you see weakness on the river, I'd push. If you see a pot and re-pot before you on the river, you can fold.

[Zoelef]

Apologies if I repeat anything someone mentioned.

I pot-raise because I have the nut-low and redraws to a better hand (full house).

Max-raising is the best way to get naked 23xx low-draws to fold...someone has a flush out there so I don't get huffy on the river unless I spike a 4, 8, or T...I'll hazard a guess and say that underfulls are safer in O/8 but I could imagine a A238 or A234 running around somewhere, especially if there are multiple callers on the pot-raise.

[Vlight]

Maybe off-topic, but from the button, I would have raised with that hand pre-flop. On the flop, I would probably (probably not) have bet as well if I was last to act (counterfeit-protection)..

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe off-topic, but from the button, I would have raised with that hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really????
This hand is total garbage! The only reason he limps at
all is that he has the button.

Suerte,
Jonathan

[JoshuaMayes]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a read on the second min-raiser to be a solid player. What kind of hands would he put in a second min-raise with?


[/ QUOTE ]
Answer:
[ QUOTE ]

the nut low with some high worse than yours

[/ QUOTE ]

I read that min-raise as a feeler/isolation bet. I would put him on a nut low with a weak high (like TPTK or two pair). He is trying to get headsup with another perceived nut-low so that he can quarter him, but he is not sure how the other hands are and wants to find out. He is afraid that a flush might be lurking, and wants to know now whether it will fold. It might be a trap with a nut-nut or nut low + flush, in which case you will have to hit your boat on the river to avoid gettting 1/6ed or 1/4ed, but most of the time, it won't be, as those hands should be max-raising.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe off-topic, but from the button, I would have raised with that hand pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you hate money?


[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I would probably (probably not) have bet as well if I was last to act (counterfeit-protection)..

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell does that mean? I'm going to assume you are saying if it checks around on the flop, you would bet out. That's probably (probably not) the stupidest piece of advice I've read in this forum in... a week. No high hand at all. No draw to a high hand as of yet. An obvious check-raise board for EP nut flush. Betting there is a fantastic strategy if you hate money and would rather give it away in a poker game than just light it on fire.

[Vlight]

[ QUOTE ]


What the hell does that mean? I'm going to assume you are saying if it checks around on the flop, you would bet out. That's probably (probably not) the stupidest piece of advice I've read in this forum in... a week. No high hand at all. No draw to a high hand as of yet. An obvious check-raise board for EP nut flush. Betting there is a fantastic strategy if you hate money and would rather give it away in a poker game than just light it on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasnt meant as advice, it was meant to spark a little discussion here.
Well, in my experience it doesnt hurt to try a medium-sized bet to see if there really are (nut-)flushes out there or not and to see if there are other 23s out there or not. Baby flushes without a low draw might even fold this hand after you make a reasonable bet.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What the hell does that mean? I'm going to assume you are saying if it checks around on the flop, you would bet out. That's probably (probably not) the stupidest piece of advice I've read in this forum in... a week. No high hand at all. No draw to a high hand as of yet. An obvious check-raise board for EP nut flush. Betting there is a fantastic strategy if you hate money and would rather give it away in a poker game than just light it on fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasnt meant as advice, it was meant to spark a little discussion here.
Well, in my experience it doesnt hurt to try a medium-sized bet to see if there really are (nut-)flushes out there or not and to see if there are other 23s out there or not. Baby flushes without a low draw might even fold this hand after you make a reasonable bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still crazy. What does betting gain you that checking doesn't still allow? Nothing. If there's nothing but baby flushes out there, it's still pointless to bet. If that's the case (big if) then you will still have the opportunity to bet/raise them off their flushes on the turn if you feel strongly about that read. In fact, it'll be more effective on the turn since it's less likely to appear to be a steal attempt, and will be much harder for a nut flush to check twice OOP. By checking the flop behind, now if you're lucky enough to catch a low, you can definitely play it strongly against those non-nut flushes, make them fold and hope that your pair of 4s will take the high (assume non-4 low card for argument's sake) if there's another 23 out there. But by betting on the flop you're sacrificing the strength of your position... a bet there is highly unlikely to pick up the pot, and you've just sacrificed your option to close the action, giving other the chance to raise you off your low draw. Trust me, it's a horrible choice to bet there, and it's not even debatable.

The most obvious rule of thumb you're violating by betting the flop here is: never draw to half the pot.