I think this might be a chronic leak

[blackize]

I always bet rivers like this even though I know someone has AJ or AQ and has me beat. Would it be better to check fold in situations like this?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (7 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (10 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

[slavic]

I like how this was played. nh

[krimson]

Weaker hands will (probably) fold to the ace and better hands will (probably) raise. This is a situation where it would be better to check/call the river.

check/folding this river would be a bad idea, you may be inducing bluffs.

[lil feller]

This is a tough spot, but check/folding to a river like this is worse than bad, its horrible. It really depends on the type of player your against, and if you aren't sure, you should bet.

If your opponents are relatively loose/passive they'll call with a lot of hands you beat, any Q or J, for instance, and maybe an underpair. Of course if they have an ace they'll call as well, and that sucks, but it happens. Against aggro opponents who are capable of raising this river w/out an Ace, just check and call. Let them think their Q is good. sometimes you'll get shown an ace, but again, that happens. What you don't want to do is muck a pot for one bet heads up against an unknown.

If the pot is multiway and its 2 bets to you, that changes things (like it did in this hand), but generally when you get to the river w/ KK, you're showing it down against your average SS online player. If he spiked an ace, good for him, but don't make a pot sized mistake in spots like this.

lf

[Azhrarn]

I don't think bet/fold here is a leak. Bet/call might be. But absent good reads on MP1 and MP2, I think one bet needs to go in on the river.

The advantage of checking here is that you can fold with a clear conscience if it's two back to you. But I think your hand is strong enough that you need to call this river for one bet, even if it's an overcall. Too many players like to bet scare cards on the river, and all the caller is saying is he has some piece of the board. (This is assuming you check, MP1 bets, MP2 calls. If both you and MP1 check and MP2 bets, that's an even stronger case for calling.)

[blackize]

Thanks guys. I guess the general concensus is to check/call here.

It turns out that they had exactly what I thought just like they usually do.

MP1 had A2 for the full house and MP2 had AJ.

[lil feller]

Two good things to take out of this

1. you didn't get rivered

2. MP1 is HORRIBLE be sure to add him to your buddy list.

lf

[slavic]

MP1 had A2 for the full house and MP2 had AJ.

Wow MP1 played that quite poorly. You really were charged the least to see this hand out.

MP2 is just a guy you want around all the time.

[blackize]

Yeah these last couple days Ive accumulated quite a buddy list.

[bigalt]

[ QUOTE ]

2. MP1 is HORRIBLE be sure to add him to your buddy list.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know that he's missing out on so much value by calling. Raising risks driving out the other players before they have a chance to catch something, and could get hero's AK, TT, or JJ to fold. The most outs anybody has against him is 2, unless they have QQ.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Weaker hands will (probably) fold to the ace and better hands will (probably) raise. This is a situation where it would be better to check/call the river.

check/folding this river would be a bad idea, you may be inducing bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I stand on this too. Especially when you're up against 2 opponents.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Weaker hands will (probably) fold to the ace and better hands will (probably) raise. This is a situation where it would be better to check/call the river.

check/folding this river would be a bad idea, you may be inducing bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I stand on this too. Especially when you're up against 2 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

My general thought versus looser players which I assign to most of the lower limit games, is "bet the river they want to call". If they rivered me that's fine, but in general I expect many more hands that you beat call in this protected pot, than bet if you check. With a protected pot they won't bluff quite so often.

[hobbsmann]

There has been a fair amount of discussion on these boards recently about not making "crying calls" in large pots when you are clearly behind. I agree in this case when it's a raise and cold call back to hero he is not ahead enough to call, but what if it plays out differently. Say hero leads this river and then is raised by MP1 and NOT cold called by MP2. Would this still be a clear fold or is this a EV+ call against what appears to be an unknown opponent?

[meep_42]

I still think this is an easy fold, unless you have specific information that he's an idiot.

He's not raising a Q, J, or underpair there. He's raising an A, 2, full, or KT something approaching 100% of the time.

-d

[dozer]

I have a question, if in this situation you were Headsup, and a ace hit on the river and you got raised or checkraised after you value bet. Do you fold?

[slavic]

13 to 1

So ask yourself is the opponent capable of bluffing more than 7% of the time here? Well if you have ever seen him do it, then I would say yea maybe. With the way this hand was played I kind of doubt hero is ahead of any river raise. Unfortunatly we already know the results so any further analysis is spoiled in this aspect.

[shant]

Bet/fold is much better than check/call. Players that were calling you on the flop and turn with a PP or a J or a Q are more likely to call this river than bet after you check. You miss bets when you're ahead.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet/fold is much better than check/call. Players that were calling you on the flop and turn with a PP or a J or a Q are more likely to call this river than bet after you check. You miss bets when you're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only true against passive, loose opponents. Against an attentive player, or a maniac, bet folding is horrible. Check to aggressive players, let them try to bluff you. Bet into the passive ones, let them call w/ JT or KQ.

lf