getting all the money in PF with AK

[dark_horse]

is there ever a time when it's appropriate to do this? AK plays itself in a limit game but in NL i'm a bit confused. i've played a few pots on the PP NL50 tables where it wasn't clear to me what the correct action was with my AK. here are those pots. interestingly, i was in the SB both times. flame away if i've made some horrible mistakes..

hand 1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($41)
BB ($72.85)
UTG ($40.79)
UTG+1 ($26.1)
MP1 ($72.1)
MP2 ($13.2)
MP3 ($32.3)
CO ($49.25)
Button ($93.9)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $1</font>, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $9.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $25.60 (All-In), MP2 calls $12.20 (All-In), MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $16.10.

Final Pot: $67.90

hand 2

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($33.05)
Button ($64.65)
Hero ($30.75)
BB ($26.1)
UTG ($53)
UTG+1 ($48)
UTG+2 ($64.2)
MP1 ($64.35)
MP2 ($66.1)
MP3 ($34.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $2.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $2.50, BB calls $25.60 (All-In), MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $23.35.

Final Pot: $55.95

my first instinct tells me my call in hand 1 was correct, while my call in hand 2 was a pure gamble, hoping for a coinflip at best. but i was getting better than 1:1 odds on the second hand, so wasn't the call correct if i was sure my opponent didn't have AA or KK?

thanks for advice on this ridiculously simple concept.

[empty]

I will never call an all-in preflop with AK unless they are a short stack just finding a weak A and pushing (playing like a damn tourney).

I've had KK run into AA so many times to preflop all-ins, that I occasionally fold KK to a strong re-raise preflop, so I definitely don't call AK all-in preflop. This is JMO, but I think that when you are ahead preflop with AK, you can still get beaten fairly easily, so I try to wait for better spots to get my entire stack in.

[amoeba]

how sure is sure that he doesn't have AA/KK?

is he more likely to have a hand like AA/KK or a hand like AQ/AJ?

the thing with AK is that its good to reraise and push with it as you pick up folding equity against hands you are coinflip against but its not that great to call a reraise or push with as people rarely push with hands you dominate in nontourney situations.

[dark_horse]

very true. but on hand 1, once action comes back around to me, isn't it an auto-call based on how much is in the pot? best scenario is if everyone has QQ or lower, or a dominated A or K. aren't i priced in even if i'm up against KK and another non-ace hand?

[amoeba]

yes, hand one is fine call.

I think I would have folded hand 2 though.

[subzero]

I like to attack/isolate a small stack when I've got AK. From the BB/SB, I sometimes go all-in with AK in an unraised pot with several callers. A lot of times, you'll take down the pot right there.

[amoeba]

yes, although I prefer just making a 10xBB raise which I also make with AA-QQ.

[subzero]

If you're against KK and 99, you're a 3:1 dog. You're getting 3.2:1 on your call so it's a marginal call (in this case).

cards win %win
Ks Ah 350902 25.60
Kc Kd 744115 54.29
9s 9h 265003 19.33

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, although I prefer just making a 10xBB raise which I also make with AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. Why go all-in if a smaller bet will do the trick? Plus, someone with AA or KK could be limp-reraising.

[meow_meow]

Hand 1 is fine.
Hand 2 is very read dependent, although the fact that villain has about 1/2 buy-in makes calling much more attractive (as shorties will often push pf with Ax or worse).

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes, although I prefer just making a 10xBB raise which I also make with AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. Why go all-in if a smaller bet will do the trick? Plus, someone with AA or KK could be limp-reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is stack size dependent. I think at around 100xbb stacks, pushing or betting more might be better as people are prone to call 10xBB raises with mid pocket pairs.

Also, adjust between full ring and 6max as limp reraise is much more likely at fullring although i've seen a limp reraised AA from the button before at 6max.

[dark_horse]

but why push just to win the limps, when you're only going to get called by a hand that beats you? if you raise 10xBB and a mid pair calls you, at least you're in good shape if you pair up on the flop and you'll win his call (most times). if not, you're probably done with the hand, especially in these hands where you're not in position. maybe a continuation bet on the flop, but after raising 10xBB, that might be quite a continuation bet, maybe committing you to the pot depending on your stack.

man, AK in a blind after a bunch of limps is not a place where i want to be often.

[vulturesrow]

The nice thing is that AK is a hand that many people are willing to get all in with. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I have done it on occasion but it was based on some pretty specific reads.

[amoeba]

the problem is you only pair 1/3 of the time and I don't want to play AK out of position when I don't pair. it depends very much on how table plays. If I believe that they will fold to continuation bet without a set then raising to 10xBB is correct play. if however, they are able to play back at you without too much of a hand, then I think pushing preflop could be better.

[djoyce003]

I think you are priced in to call in hand 1. Hand 2 is terrible unless the guy has been doing this a lot or if he just suffered a bad beat. In my experience someone that has taken a bad beat will push with weak hands trying to build their stack back up quickly and "get lucky".