preflop raising gets me in trouble postflop

[chopchoi]

Before reading Ed Miller's book, I used to play weak/tight before the flop (would only raise with AA-JJ, AK-AQ, AJs and KQs and would just call with many of these hands in ep), and played like a TAG after the flop. I now raise more pf, but I find that when I do, I turn into a lag after the flop, especially when I am heads up.

Here is an example:
I have TT in BB with 4 limpers. Normally I would just call with this hand when I am out of position, but I tell myself that I will win the pot more than 25% of the time, so a raise will be +EV. So I raise.

The flop is A,J,rag, with 2 hearts. I bet and get one caller. The turn is another non-heart low card, and I bet again. He calls again. The river is another blank. I check and he bets. Not good to fold the river for 1 bet. I'm getting 9:1 to call, and there's at least a 10% chance he's betting a busted draw, so I call. He shows an Ace.

If I had just checked pf, I would have check/folded the flop, and would have saved 3 big bets. I find myself in this type of situation all the time, and I am not profiting as much as I used to.

What should I do? I am tempted to say that Ed Miller's style just isn't for me, and go back to my old way of playing. Is this a good idea?

[MrWookie47]

I like a flop bet in that situation because there's a huge chance you'll take it down. If not, that's the last money I'm putting in the pot. You should definitely fold that river.

Also, the best solution to playing bad poker is not to play a different form of bad poker.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
but I tell myself that I will win the pot more than 25% of the time, so a raise will be +EV. So I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it yourself. Raising is +EV. Gambling for profit (all forms) is about making the plays that maximise your expectation. Since raising has a higher expectation than checking in this case, raising is the correct play. (In some cases you might give up some expectation preflop to exploit a bigger postflop edge on a favourable flop, but I think TT is too strong to check here).

However, the fact that you raised preflop doesn't give you any special attachment to your hand postflop. You are going to change how much you like your hand a lot when the flop is laid out. In other words, just because you raised PF, doesn't mean you need to come out all guns blazing on a board that probably has you screwed.

In your example, I'd have cringed but probably bet the flop. If anyone calls I'm done with the hand, check/folding the turn UI. This is to cover situations where noone has an ace and you would not take the pot if you checked. Firing again on the turn with two overcards isn't going to be profitable in the long run unless your opponent is an absolute moron.

It takes a while to get used to it but the main thing to learn is that raising PF does not marry you to your hand. If you can get over this sort of play, things should start to improve.

[bozlax]

Since you raised preflop from the BB, in this particular instance, anybody holding ace-rag suited that called one the first time 'round is obviously going to call one more, but be worried that you have a better ace. When you bet out this flop you haven't done anything to disabuse them of that notion, but they're going to be reluctant to fold their top pair as well (especially if they have redraws), so they're going to call down. It's what I'd do.

The answer isn't to go back to playing your strong hands like a wuss, preflop, it's to adjust your postflop style a smidge. In the example given you don't HAVE to bet postflop; TT is a middle-pair and you've flopped 2 overcards with no redraws. Check, and depending on your read of the Villan when he bets (which he should), you react accordingly.

[Marquis]

Here's an idea. Don't make marginal preflop raises until you know how to play them postflop. There is no shame in checking TT from the BB preflop with 4 people already in, and playing it for set value.

[walkdoc]

Thanks very much for posting this question. This is one of my biggest leaks, and the suggestions you received really help me a lot. I suppose you could term middle pair hands Weak/Tight postflop hands, depending on the over cards that come thru. I actually find this problem much more w/ AKo - AJo, when I never hit the flop or turn and often not the river. Good to know that its better to fold and wait for the next hand then continue to spew $$$. Thanks again! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Walkdoc

[aK13]

If I am in the BB with 4 limpers, I raise preflop, but don't hesitate to dump postflop (check/fold) on this type of board vs. 5 players. Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[nomadtla]

This is something I've run into a lot myself since I switched from my Weak/suppertight to more Ed millers style. I know I still need to let go of hands I raised preflop. The flop bet is good, but I agree with MR Wookie "that's the last money I'm putting in the pot". and with Dave "the fact that you raised preflop doesn't give you any special attachment to your hand postflop".
Now if only I could listen to what I'm saying when I'm at the tables, then I wouldn't become an ATM on hands like this, and overs that miss.
thanks for posting this question.

[TripleH68]

May I suggest it sounds like you need to work on hand reading skills.

Your post sounds like you are too focused on your own cards. If you have PT open it up and review some hands.

[chaz64]

You have to consider the board and number of opponents before betting out. With two overcards and one or two opponents I would bet out. Here, you have four opponents - it's too likely one of the overcards hit someone. With a flop of J-rag-rag I'd be more inclined to bet.

With A-J-rag and more than three opponents I would typically check. If it is bet and raised you have an easy fold. If there is a bet from EP and no raise you can call knowing it won't cost more than one bet to peel, and you can fold the turn UI. If it's checked to LP and is bet, you can check-raise in the hopes of driving out someone with a weak ace who would have called for just one bet.

[zuluking]

This hand should be a no-brainer. Check/fold the flop and move on to the next hand.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand should be a no-brainer. Check/fold the flop and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops. Four limpers. Check/fold. Don't bet like I first said.

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand should be a no-brainer. Check/fold the flop and move on to the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a little weak-tight to assume that just because there are two overs on the flop (even if one of them is an ace) that someone has to have you beat.

I like the "fire one bet and be done with it" line. The ace can be just as scary for everyone else, and I find I'll take down the pot often enough with a bet right there to make a flop bet EV+.

[turaho]

Although four limpers does make this decision tougher.

I'd say the addition of the flush draw probably does make this a check/fold against four opponents.

What's Hero's line if it's checked through and the turn is a blank?

[Xhad]

You don't have to be anywhere near sure that you're beat to check/fold; it's kind of like folding 99 to a single (non-steal) raise before the flop. You might have the best hand, but:

-If you are behind, you are way behind
-If you are ahead, you are not ahead by much
-You will have a very hard time telling when you are ahead, but your opponents will likely be able to tell when they are ahead

Just how likely do you think you are to fold everyone here? You said yourself you're done with the hand if you don't fold everyone, so when you bet you are betting that your multiway pot doesn't contain anyone with two hearts, KQ (especially with at least one heart), Ax, Jx, AJ, or a fluke two pair or set. That's a lot of things to dodge in a field of five. Now throw in the fact that you have almost no hope if behind, your opponents could be drawing to hands that will beat your set if you hit it, and you'll be out of position and therefore certainly face a bet later that you said you won't call even if you are best and reverse implied odds rears its ugly head.

EDIT: I noticed your other post after I posted this one, but I'll leave it for the benefit of discussion for anyone else who wants to play this flop.

[TomBrooks]

>>> I have TT in BB with 4 limpers. I raise.

Good

> The flop is A,J,rag, with 2 hearts. I bet

That's your mistake. Not the preflop raise. Many middle or weak Aces will call but not raise because they are afraid you might have a better Ace because of your preflop raise. Virtually no Kings will raise here, but most will call in this raised pot, hoping to improve if nothing else. An Ace and King came on the flop. You have Tens. This is no longer your hand. Check/Fold.

>>> If I had just checked pf, I would have check/folded the flop, and would have saved 3 big bets.

You raised because you had the best hand before the flop. Your raise should not have tied you to this pot after the flop.

>>> I am tempted to say that Ed Miller's style just isn't for me

I think Ed Miller would have Raised PreFlop and Check/Folded the flop.


Edit: After reading the thread, I see a couple of posters suggested a Flop Bet and Turn Check/Fold. With 4 other limpers I think this is probably somewhat -EV. I might try that line with 1 or 2 limpers, with 3....ehhh. Your OOP. If you were last to act and it got checked to you, I would probably bet. This hand is over. Dump it. Next.

[CDSNUTSINYAMOUTH]

don't know what you read in ed miller's book
i never got the impression to raise out of the bb out of position on every single round with middle pocket pairs...
read the book more intently and make sure you grasp what he's really trying to say

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Good to know that its better to fold...

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, big fella. Just to be clear, nobody said anything about auto-folding. We're saying you don't have auto-BET, but don't auto-fold, either. What you do on this sort of flop with this sort of pocket pair is read-dependent. Most of the time against micro players, yes, you will dump it. But sometimes you'll run into a guy with a worse pocket pair (or king-high, or complete trash) than yours that will take a shot at this because it's a big pot with a scary board, from, say, your immediate right. Start learning to recognize it.

[AmarilloJim1]

I think the idea is that you have the best hand at this point and are raising to increase your expected value. The flop may be good for you or bad; however, this is the preferred play. I think this is covered in SSH.

[tiltaholic]

hey-
something which people haven't yet pointed out ---

you need to dissociate preflop play from postflop play. sometimes it is correct to play aggressively preflop, and not postflop. nobody advocates just firing bets into the pot because you need to show agression. TT is a strong hand. you SHOULD raise preflop in normal loose passive games. but there are a lot of flops that can flop. not all of them are good.

[chopchoi]

Here's the thing. If two players had called my flop bet, I could have easily folded the turn. But, since only one player called, how do I know he has me beat? He could just as easily be chasing a gutshot or a flush. If I check the turn, he is liable to bet and steal the pot, only becasuse I showed weakness. And if he doesn't bet, he might take a free card, catch, and beat me. So I'm not so sure that giving up on the turn against a lone opponent is correct. If I hadn't raised, and the pot was small, it would be easier.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
What's Hero's line if it's checked through and the turn is a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]
A bet is still risky as a King will often check this though. And now the King knows there is probably no Ace so he'll probably take this to showdown. It might be worth a shot, but I'm not even sure about that.

[Cooker]

Let me give you how I would probably play the hand and my reasoning. I raise this preflop without a doubt. Inside, I hate the flop. Several opponents and 2 overcards on the flop makes your hand pretty weak. I would check. If there is a bet and calls after me, I fold unless I am getting 20 to 1 pot odds to draw (unlikely and I want the ten of hearts in my hand so both outs are clean). If there is only a bet with no caller when the action comes back, I may check raise representing AK/AQ, but still lean toward a fold since the bettor is betting into a big field. If this check raise gets called anywhere, I am likely done with the hand unless the turn brings a ten.

I prefer showing some big aggression on early streets from time to time because it is cheaper than betting all the way with weak hands against calling stations. This move might fold weak Aces caught in between if the bettor is simply bluffing or drawing and will probably slow him down on later streets.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. If two players had called my flop bet, I could have easily folded the turn. But, since only one player called, how do I know he has me beat? He could just as easily be chasing a gutshot or a flush. If I check the turn, he is liable to bet and steal the pot, only becasuse I showed weakness. And if he doesn't bet, he might take a free card, catch, and beat me. So I'm not so sure that giving up on the turn against a lone opponent is correct. If I hadn't raised, and the pot was small, it would be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too optimistic. The flop is too scary. Your scenario will pan out occassionally, but not enough to compensate for all the times you lose. It will be -EV in the long run.

Raising this preflop is still probably +EV for the times you do win the hand, so the preflop raise is still good. Against one overcard, especially a Jack or a Queen, a bet might be worth making. The Ace is the worst card that can come for you. A King is second worst. You got them both here. The pot is still not big enough to continue.

[Xhad]

That's the point. It doesn't make any difference if there's 5 bets vs. 10 bets in the pot, if you're not getting odds for a set and you won't win any other way you should still fold the flop. The reason you PFR is because not all flops are going to suck that much.

Almost any hand can go to crap on the flop. The point is not to stop raising preflop when you have an edge. The point is to recognize when your hand has fallen apart and you should fold after the flop. The fact that raising before the flop makes you play badly after the flop is a postflop leak, considering in this TT example you don't have the odds to continue even though it's raised.

[dawade]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A concept I am just now learning.

[MrHorace]

Ditto for me as well. I feel like a total moron often with my post-flop play in these situations, so will study and re-study this post often.
Thanks for an awesome post.
david

[JKDStudent]

With that flop, I check/fold in most situations. Two overcards that people love to limp with, 2 to a flush, and you don't have a heart. That's no good. If you're behind, the only things you can hope for are a non-heart T (which completes a potential gutshot), or runner-runner for the one-card straight. You raised pf, so if you bet, anyone with a medium/small Ace is just going to call, fearing a bigger one. A King is probably not going to fold, but will not raise fearing an ace. And betting the turn if a 'safe' card falls does nothing, because a king would likely check that flop, so you're still probably not ahead.

This is a part of my game that I've been working on with success. I lost a good amount of money in 1/2 to the tighties at Crypto. I would simply go too far with second-best hands. My general thought process was, "But AQ/TT/JJ/AK is a good hand! Bet, bet, bet!" Disastrous. Now, it's a bit different. I'll raise AJ UTG, but I'll be telling myself that if I don't like the flop, I'm not going to waste money. That's not to say "fit or fold", but don't be stubborn. Realize that even AA doesn't win all the time, and going too far with second-best hands can be the most expensive thing you can do.

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A concept I am just now learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Auto-betting a flop that I raised preflop is probably my biggest leak.

[silvershade]

I too have struggled to balance my aggression levels, particularly on hands that I raised pre-flop. It's definitely important to learn that you arent married to the hand just because you raised pre flop. I know this intellectually but for now still find myself staying in a hand I should dump. Its easily my biggest leak.

That said with TT and a number of limpers already, I think perhaps that limping from BB makes some sense rather than raising as you normally would with this hand, you are going after all to have to play out of position which isnt optimal for a medium pair like this and if J or higher flop with so many in you probably are in trouble.

[silvershade]

As a side note, against 5 or more limpers you might start raising as a value bet for the possibility of hitting a set.