You raise for the first time in an hour? I cold call!

[MRBAA]

Loose, weak 2-4 table at Party. There are two other reasonably solid types, one to my immediate right.

In this hand, I'm the button, three players limp, tight player raises in the cut off and I have A9s.

Call, fold or three-bet?

[SmileyEH]

fold

-SmileyEH

[The_Curtain]

Easy Fold. Three betting may isolate the TAG / Rock which could easily have you dominated.

[MRBAA]

If the BB calls the raise, which is likely in this game, and the limpers all call -- a virtual certainty -- I'll be getting 5-1 on my suited ace. And there WILL be callers if I flop good. Still a fold?

[Sasnak]

I fold w/A9s but would consider 3 betting an ATs on the button.

~

[PokerBob]

Call or fold. IMO 3-betting sucks.

[axioma]

this is a ridiculously easy fold. did you really need to post this?

[dont mean to be rude but i really dont see any disscussion on this hand?]

[Sasnak]

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB calls the raise, which is likely in this game, and the limpers all call -- a virtual certainty -- I'll be getting 5-1 on my suited ace. And there WILL be callers if I flop good. Still a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd still fold A9s here.

~

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB calls the raise, which is likely in this game, and the limpers all call -- a virtual certainty -- I'll be getting 5-1 on my suited ace. And there WILL be callers if I flop good. Still a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's as easy a fold as the others are saying. The tight player who raised, is he a rock? Or is he position aware and possibly raising with a wide range of hands? I don't know that calling or folding are particularly correct, it sounds like a pretty break-even situation to me.

[augie00]

If he is truly tight, this is an easy fold, and I'm also folding AT, AJ, and AQo. Well, probably not AQo. I'd probably 3-bet that. But I am too loose.

[wireMan]

Call, feeling that the limpers will probably come in for one more. If the blinds come along that gives pretty good odds to see the flop looking for the flush. Definitely not getting married to it if an A comes.

[axioma]

you just cant call 2 bets cold from a tight raiser "looking for the flush".

this is very basic stuff...

[MRBAA]

IMHO the key to this is the limpers. I think this is a marginal hand, but one where being an experienced reasonably solid player may have value -- but I'm truly not sure, hence the post.

The cutoff is not raising a marginal hand with three limpers. If he had something like a small pocket pair or JTs, he'd just limp along. He was not a particularly imaginative player, I didn't think.

Bob is obviously right, three betting is awful -- the last thing I want is to isolate since there's a good chance I have a dominated ace and almost no chance my nine beats any pocket pair he could have. No, I want to hit my flush or a lucky flop like 99x or A9x. But getting either 4-1 or 5-1, on the button, knowing I can get away from many of my dominated hands, and knowing I can win 4 or 5 more BB if I hit, I don't think this is an obvious fold.

[wireMan]

It's not just the raiser, odds are the three limpers are going to come in as well, plus maybe the BB (if not the SB as well). If it wasn't suited, I don't play A9o against here, but being suited makes it worthwhile to see this flop IMO.

[damaniac]

Another factor is that you have terrible relative position if you flop a flush draw. You risk raising and knocking everyone else out, or you can forgo a raise and keep more people around but then miss out on value. In an already very marginal situation, this should matter.

[thejameser]

as a policy i almost never cold-call(i didn't say never, almost never). this is a fold for me. it shouldn't be automatic, but taking into account the PFR, i fold.

[MRBAA]

Well, it's about 8-1 against flopping a two flush. But add in my two pair and trips outs and perhaps I need 7-1. I think I easily have this here, getting 4-1 or 5-1 immediate odds.

BB comes, limpers call, 6 to the flop in a 6BB pot.

The flop comes down A93 rainbow. BB checks, 1st limper checks, two other limpers fold, cutoff raises and I...

[thejameser]

who did CO raise? do you mean bets?

[DMBFan23]

is the flop rainbow? I'd cold call and raise the turn. if the flop has a flush draw I'd be more likely to go ahead and three bet. EDIT: assuming 1st limper bets and not checks.

also, I wrote out a paragraph about why calling preflop was ok, then thought of a bunch of reasons to fold. I think it could go either way, but I would have called. 3 limpers plus blinds is a lot of overlay

[thejameser]

i also, would smooth call with plans to raise the turn.

[MRBAA]

Sorry. 1st limper BETs, others fold, cutoff raises.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Another factor is that you have terrible relative position...

[/ QUOTE ]

[MHarris]

If the blinds are loose, I'm calling.

[boscoboy]

[ QUOTE ]
you just cant call 2 bets cold from a tight raiser "looking for the flush".

this is very basic stuff...

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree here - only on party can you make money calling 2 cold bets with A9s - its a bad habit to get into. now how bout skipping the suspense and show us how you [censored] your way into a large pot by hitting the full house

[colgin]

I would call, with folding being the second best option. Raising here seems truly awful.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree here - only on party can you make money calling 2 cold bets with A9s

[/ QUOTE ]

luckily the game is on party, so that worked out well. and [censored] yourself into a huge pot with a flush or full house is part of the reason to play these hands. we're certainly not looking to flop AKQr here

[MRBAA]

I'm not on a top pair hand with A9s here. I'm on a nut flush draw hand in a multiway pot.

And I think my hand is very likely good once I hit two pair -- the cutoff's raise makes me think he has a big ace which I have reverse dominated or maybe a hand like KK/QQ. If he has the two remaining aces, I'm in big trouble but it's not likely. The question on the flop is how to make the most $$ with my two pair.

[Joe Tall]

Given your read and your position on the PFR, this is closer to a fold. Granted, a call is EV-neutral via the effective and implicit pot size. This would be a much easier call say the TAG raised in EP and there were 3 cold callers afterward as you can make up the Ace-domination with better position on the PFR.

[MRBAA]

It's not just party. I was at Foxwoods playing 4-8 a week or so back and the game was loose as can be. Low stakes holdem games tend to be loose -- when I find a tight one, I generally switch tables.

[MRBAA]

That is the one factor I didn't think of -- and it definitely did limit my return when I actually hit my two pair on the flop.

I three bet the raise, because the ep limper was a calling station and I thought the BB would call 3 about as well as 2. In the event, this may have been a mistake as they both folded. Cutoff called and we went to the turn with 9.5BB in the pot.

It came off A93 5 rainbow and he bet right out. Some players are so suspicious. Naturally I....

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
That is the one factor I didn't think of -- and it definitely did limit my return when I actually hit my two pair on the flop.

I three bet the raise, because the ep limper was a calling station and I thought the BB would call 3 about as well as 2. In the event, this may have been a mistake as they both folded. Cutoff called and we went to the turn with 9.5BB in the pot.

It came off A93 5 rainbow and he bet right out. Some players are so suspicious. Naturally I....

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise, call a 3-bet, and cap a safe river sounds pretty good from where I'm sitting. The only playable hands we're behind are AA and 99 which are possible but not likely.

[wireMan]

[ QUOTE ]

Raise, call a 3-bet, and cap a safe river sounds pretty good from where I'm sitting. The only playable hands we're behind are AA and 99 which are possible but not likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good

[MRBAA]

I thought I was likely way ahead here and was actually worried he might fold -- I definitely thought I'd get in only one raise (unless he had AA or 99, of course).

So I smooth called with position and we went to the river with 11.5BB in the pot.

It came down A935 A

Giving me the stone cold nuts. He bet, I raised, he called. He didn't show and I didn't get the hand history, but it sure looks like AK or maybe AQ

[wireMan]

nh

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Call or fold. IMO 3-betting sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.

I definitely don't think this is the easiest fold ever. Hero is getting around 5:1 on the cold call, considering the blinds. On the button, that's pretty good odds.

With every opponent that enters the pot ahead of Hero, the top-pair strentgh of Hero's hand decreases, but the value of the nut flush increases. 3-betting would be a disaster here, becasue we want a multiway pot, not a short pot.

Given all this, I think the decision is between call and fold, and the decision is close. I'd probably fold 3 times for ever time I call in this situation. If there were 4 limpers and then a raise, I'd call very often.

[Paxosmotic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call or fold. IMO 3-betting sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.

I definitely don't think this is the easiest fold ever. Hero is getting around 5:1 on the cold call, considering the blinds. On the button, that's pretty good odds.

With every opponent that enters the pot ahead of Hero, the top-pair strentgh of Hero's hand decreases, but the value of the nut flush increases. 3-betting would be a disaster here, becasue we want a multiway pot, not a short pot.

Given all this, I think the decision is between call and fold, and the decision is close. I'd probably fold 3 times for ever time I call in this situation. If there were 4 limpers and then a raise, I'd call very often.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of those situations where I switch over to PT real quick and check out what CO has been raising with. Any position aware TAG is going to be raising a wide range of hands here and A9s is certainly playable against a great deal of them. If he's raising hands such as QJs after a lot of limpers (like I would), then I could certainly call two cold here.

Aces over Nines? Didn't I see a movie about this, Teddy KGB?

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
Given all this, I think the decision is between call and fold, and the decision is close. I'd probably fold 3 times for ever time I call in this situation. If there were 4 limpers and then a raise, I'd call very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

But i'm calling QJs-87s every time here. The A-domination devalues the hand a lot, in my eyes, especially if you can't get away from an A on the flop/turn.

-d

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given all this, I think the decision is between call and fold, and the decision is close. I'd probably fold 3 times for ever time I call in this situation. If there were 4 limpers and then a raise, I'd call very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

But i'm calling QJs-87s every time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your call, but this is a different sort of situation.

In Hero's case, we are reduced to having just 1 way to win a miltiway pot: with the nut flush. The effectiveness of our top-pair hand is reduced to nearly zero.

In the case of QJs-87s, now we have 2 ways to win a multi-way pot: with a non-nut (but likely good) flush, and also with a straight. This improves the values of these hands to more than A9s in this situation. Our top-pair strength is reduced even more than A9s, but we aren't playing in the sort of pot where we're looking for a top-pair scenario. As you said, we need to be able to jettison our made-top-pair hand.

[Jeff W]

Why do you assume that top pair has no value?

[Dagger78]

I would have to agree. We aren't only looking to make the flush here. All those times the CO is raising with KK-TT, our Ace is good.

I'd consider the aggressiveness of the CO, is he going to bet any hand checked to him? If he bets any of those big pairs we can raise the flop (if we hit the ace) and try to limit the field. I think is unlikely he 3 bets the flop unless we're beaten, so it's fairly easy to see where we stand. Considering this and the flush value, I think this is a good call.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that top pair has no value?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. I assume it has much reduced value, and must be played cautiously.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
All those times the CO is raising with KK-TT, our Ace is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all those times. The table was described as weak. A weak player is very capable of limping AT, AJ or even AQ and AK.

[Emmitt2222]

Whoever has said things like they are never coldcalling or that this hand is bad for that are wrong IMO. If that same villian were UTG and raised, there were 3 coldcallers in between and you fold A9s on the button you are giving up way too much. Im just leaning towards a fold because of poor relative position.

[sthief09]

I call here but I don't love the situation

[MRBAA]

A marginal situation for sure. Swinging it to a call for me was the awful-ness and calling tendencies of the limpers. I actually got less action than expected on the actual hand. And. yes, some of that is certainly relative position-related.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you assume that top pair has no value?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. I assume it has much reduced value, and must be played cautiously.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In Hero's case, we are reduced to having just 1 way to win a miltiway pot: with the nut flush. The effectiveness of our top-pair hand is reduced to nearly zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mike Gallo]

I hate folding in this spot. Just because he plays tight, does not mean that he doesnt loosen his raising standards in late position. Many players consider me a very tight player, however I will raise from the cutoff in the described situation with 910 suited J10 suited and pocket pairs down to 44. I think you can find a call, or a fold. Hearts call clubs fold spades call diamonds fold.

Three betting makes no sense.

[Mike Gallo]

I think a lot of you guys need to redefine tight player. Tight players don't always need big hands to raise from the cutoff after 3 limpers. I played with poster Fred G Sanford one night at the Borgata and he raised with 22-44 in this spot. As a side note he hit a set each time and punished the limpers /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sometimes the tight player will "beat" you to the pot with a hand like KJ s000ted or J9 s000ted. Some tight players will raise with these hands. Sometimes the tight player has position on you by acting first. When Fred G Sanford and I play together we try to switch up position. Sometimes he will sit on my right and have position on me, and sometimes he will to to my left and I have position on him.

Just something to ponder when evaluating players.