I can't beat .5/1 Party [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

sexdrugsmoney

07-06-2005, 09:16 AM

Guys I need your help.

I can't beat .5/1 Party, I'm down 150BB's in the last 3-4 days and my confidence is shot to pieces.

My V$PIP is around 25, pfr 8-9, I'm going to SD about 37 and winning just over 40.

SCfuji (thanks fuji) asked me to post these stats. The norm is as-is, my numbers for comparison are in brackets to the right of the norm numbers: (% from the Won $ at SD % column in PT under misc stats)

One pair ---- 21.9% (35.90%)
Two pair ---- 24.7% (41.28)
Three ------- 14.5% (64.62)
Straight ---- 12.0% (88.00)
Flush ------- 11.4% (80.43)
Full House -- 10.7% (76.00)

These players keep outdrawing me coming in with dominated hands, I honestly can't take it.

I don't want to move up in limits because I'm determined to step up each limit as a "stepping stone" and if I can't beat .5/1 then I'm going nowhere until I can.

I haven't read SSH (its in the mail) but have read Lee Jones book.

If I follow Jones' advice I'm folding too much when a scare card hits, if I follow Millers' (from the threads I've read of his in these forums) then someone always has those scare cards.

What prompted me to post this thread is that today a player sat down at Party with $20 and turned it into $100 within about 2 hours.

He was jokingly confident and had a V$Pip of 95! and a pfr of 12, he was crushing the table and PT has him pegged as "Loose Passive/Passive" (so he wasn't a maniac)

I then thought to myself, "is this how you're supposed to play the really low limits? virtually never fold pre-flop and cold call infinate raises?" ... I just don't know.

I hear about people "crushing" tables and limits but whenever I play I never feel like I'm crushing anything even if I win a few hands in a row.

Where does this confidence come from to say you can "crush" something?

Any advice is appreciated, I really need help, I'm not touching the game for a while.

Cheers,
SDM

Here's a recent hand if you guys wish to comment, UTG+1 was the guy who played 95% of hands BTW. (table had a pfr of around 4 and tightness of about 17-20)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

SCfuji

07-06-2005, 09:18 AM

we cant give you help if you dont show us how you play

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=2796877 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

compare your stats with these numbers and then post some hands for us to discuss.

flopwell

07-06-2005, 09:31 AM

I am experiencing the same thing, to a degree at Paradise .50/1. While I am only down 50 BB after 2k hands, I just can't get ahead. I was winning at 8 BB/100 over 10k hands at .25/50. What I find is that the tables are significantly tighter at the new level, which means there aren't as many easy games, so I remember the bad beats more and more. In fact, I was up 20 BB after about 100 games last nite, when at one of these tables a 75/1/0.38 sat down and double his buy-in largely at my expense. I isolated him 3 times with TPGK or better and he drew out every time, with nowhere near the odds to draw. Such is life(or poker at least,) but it didn't make me feel any better when I left down 1 BB a little while later.

Keep your head up, play good poker, and by all means, READ SSHE /images/graemlins/grin.gif

KingOtter

07-06-2005, 09:37 AM

You can't push the cards... all you can do is be there waiting for when they turn your way again. Concentrate on making good poker decisions, be confident in your play no matter what the outcome and don't focus on the money.

KO

Fantam

07-06-2005, 09:38 AM

That guy was just being extremely lucky. I have seen that happen with other players playing too many hands also. But if you had to see them play all the time, you would notice that they would be losing overall.

Wait to receive your copy of SSHE and in the meantime read the forums here, and make your own suggestions as to how to play hands. You will get feedback from other players if they disagree with your advice, and this will help to improve your game.

Also review the hands that you played and post a few of the ones which you had difficulty with here. Explain your decision making and thoughts at the time of playing the hand, and see if other players would have played your hand the same way.

My understanding is that Lee Jones book recommends cautious play for new players, so its possible that you misunderstood some of the book's suggestions.

Keep reading and post hands here. Winning play will come with a disciplined tight (and agressive) approach, but it takes time and practice. Its not easy, but with patience it will come.

RatFink

07-06-2005, 09:54 AM

It's been awhile since I read it, but I believe limping UTG with T9o isn't in Lee Joneses Book.

davelin

07-06-2005, 09:55 AM

Fold pre-flop

Fantam

07-06-2005, 10:09 AM

Fold PF. 9To is unlikely to win many top pair hands as it is dominated by too many other hands, such as AT,KT,QT,JT,A9 etc. Also you have terrible position.

Flop. With a pair and gut-shot you had sufficient outs to call to see if your hand improves from middle pair.

Turn. Your turn raise was fine, when you made your straight. You are tieing with anyone else who has a 9 and only behind an unlikely Q9.

River. The 9 on the river counterfieted your hand. Unfortunately you are now behind anyone who has a Q. Everyone else also now has at least the same hand as you.

You should have checked the river and folded to a bet against 2 other players. The river bet is very unlikely to be a bluff when you are not HU.

UATrewqaz

07-06-2005, 10:13 AM

Grunching.

Well first it is possible to be in the midst of a huge legitimate downswing. My guess is that you have a few leaks though.

1. VPIP of 25% is a tad on the high side, closer to 20% is ideal I believe.

2. Win % at showdown of 40% is way low, this needs to be at around 50%, indicates you are taking hands to the showdown that are obvious losers (unimproved AK or middle pocket pairs?)

3. As for the hand you posted, calling UTG with T9o is bad, bad period and worse in early position.

I'm by no means an expert but I did 3.8 BB / 100 over my last 10K at .5/1 and moved up to 1/2 where I'm currently doing 6.8 BB / 100 over my last 3K there. I do nothing special other than play tight preflop (20.4 VPIP) and only bet/chase draws with right odds.

look at the following hand categories and see how you aer doing with each, all should be winners in the long run.

1. Big Pairs (AA-JJ)
2. Medium Pairs (TT-77)
3. Low Pairs (66-22)
4. Ace/Face + Face/Face Suited
5. Ace/Face + Face/Face Offsuit
6. Ace/x Suited
7. Low suited connectors (T9 down to 54)

You may discover you are habitually not playing certain types of these hands, each have their own problem.

1, are you not raising preflop enough?
6/7, are you playing them against small fields or out of position?
2, are you taking them to showdown unimproved on hopeless boards or not knocking out opponents when possible?
5, are you the master of the Q/J offsuit from UTG?

etc.

Dave G.

07-06-2005, 10:13 AM

Firstly, your hand. Fold this preflop please. T9 SUITED is a hand you can think about playing from early position, but offsuit is a nono (infact don't play T9o from anywhere, ever, until you have a very solid understanding of what you are getting yourself into postflop). Your multiway potential is limited because you can't make a flush that's likely to win too often, and you won't flop a straight or straight draw often enough to compensate for the cost of playing this hand. And finally, it won't make a winning pair often enough either. A better pair will come along, or someone with the same pair and a better kicker can still beat you.

Check/call that river if it's one to you, if it's 2 or more then fold, any Q or 6 has you dead to rites.

You will understand these concepts more once you read, reread, rereread SSH over and over again. They're too indepth for me to explain here and Ed Miller does a much better job than I ever could, so grab that book and study it like there's no tomorrow.

As for the rest of your post...

Someone with a VPIP of 95% will not be a long term winner. That's just all there is to it. Over the long run, he plays too many unprofitable hands that will drain away his bankroll. I've seen one dude, an awful awful player, win over $300 at a 2/4 table through the course of his session. He was playing the most awful crap ever, but he was catching cards. My guess is, those winnings are all long gone now.

Over the short term, anyone can hit a good run of cards. When you play solid hands, you are playing them because on average they will be winners, not because they will win every time. You could have AA dealt to you 12 times and have it lose every single time. You should raise it the next time too. This is a key point to understand - you must detach yourself from short term results and focus on the plays that are winners in the long term.

Other than that, it's study, practice and experience. That's where the confidence comes from.

Sasnak

07-06-2005, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]

He was jokingly confident and had a V$Pip of 95! and a pfr of 12, he was crushing the table and PT has him pegged as "Loose Passive/Passive" (so he wasn't a maniac)

[/ QUOTE ]

You had better recheck your PT stats 'cuz 95/12 isn't loose/passive.

If I were you, and I have been at times, I would play a single table and really study the board as they cards fall. Practice counting your outs and pot odds. Don't worry about "implied odds" as I think this actually gets you to make a lot of loose calls early in your poker learning stage.

Know what the nuts are at any given time and start putting your opponents on ranges of hands as he checks, calls or bets when certain cards fall.

From the tone of your post I doubt it's a variance issue and more of needing to improve your post flop play.

~

EDIT: 9To is about the easiest fold UTG. Go back to WLLHE and take a look at the charts.

UATrewqaz

07-06-2005, 10:57 AM

I've seen people who play every hand go on huge winning streaks and it's not that surprising.

There are only 10 players and SOMEONE is dealt the "winning" hand every hand. Take into account alot of folding (say 6 fold during the course of the hand) that leaves you on average with a 25% chance of winning at showdown playing any two cards... the key to that statement is ON AVERAGE.

My PT database is over 30K hands and you know what, I bet during the course of that 30K I have been dealt the winning hand preflop probably 15-20 times in a row and had I showed them down everyone at the table would have been going on irrate.

Stats and averages will catch up to you, they are good at that, ask casinos, or any guy who's ever been up huge playing craps/roullette and kept pushing it.

To summarize SSHE prelfop: Pick a solid and simple system. Get rid of the hands you have to play excellent with to show a profit. Stick to the winners. Use them to refine your post flop play (where the real money is made). Only after you become a winner this way, then you revist your preflop game and add in hands you can turn a profit with, with your new skills.

1. Play big pairs in any position, always raising.
2. Play medium pairs in any position, raising in late position, especially if no one has entered yet. Be prepared to ditch on dangerous flops (1 overcard on a disconnected board is not so bad, multiple ones or connected boards, eck).
3. Play small pairs agsint LARGE groups (in late position is this easy, in early position you have to know the the table is loose/passive).

4. Ace/face suited, you normally want to raise with these hands, as your pot equity is high. In late position play these hands extremely aggressive, even post flop when it has missed you entirely.

5. Suited connectors (T9 - 54) same rules as small PP really.

6. Suited one gappers (see above).

Too much to type, get SSHE, pick a solid simple system and stick with it. Near perfect preflop play can be achieved by anyone. Post flop is where you have to hone your game.

phlup

07-06-2005, 11:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's been awhile since I read it, but I believe limping UTG with T9o isn't in Lee Joneses Book.

[/ QUOTE ]

It needs to be said again.

webgator

07-06-2005, 11:26 AM

Some people just get lucky...don't get discouraged.

Re-read Lee Jones until you get your SSHE book. Also tighten up your starting hand selection. 10/9 os in almost any postition I am folding...but that is just me.

Confidence for me has come from consistently playing the same game and not having the tendency to loosen up my hand selection when I am up a few $$$. I've seen many people do this and I can't understand why.

I play about 10 hours per week at the .50/1 level (not just Party), and as long as I am up for the week then I am happy.

Though I don't consider myself "crushing" it, I am winning. Here are my stats for Party skins:

VPiP 20.13, PFR 3.1, Went to SD 30.73, Won at SD 56.67 BB/100 1.31

jaym

07-06-2005, 11:54 AM

Read, re-read and re-read again WLLH. If you thought that it said anywhere in that book it was cool to play T9o from up front, you have got a serious reading comprehension problem and it can't be fixed in this forum. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tighten up your preflop standards, post hands, paticipate in discussions and you will get better.

Guthrie

07-06-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

benneh

07-06-2005, 12:33 PM

fold this pre-flop, but why the hell are you ebtting this river? at best, you are looking at a chop. never EVER put money in on a chopping board likethis. villain has a queen and you just gave him an extra bet. the only exception to this would maybe be a board with the nut straight on it and you think you can push your moronic opponent off it somehow.

Taxmanrick

07-06-2005, 12:34 PM

I just recently went through the same thing. someone recommended i re-read SShe' post flop section. I also got the advanced player book and read that. I review those often and refer to this site regularly. I makes a difference. Keep positive and play good poker, it will catch up with the idiots out there!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Greg J

07-06-2005, 12:35 PM

Plenty of good advice on this thread. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel, since I think pretty much everything everyone else has said is dead on.

Okay 2+2 is about honesty and tough love. So I'm gonna offer you some tough love. Someone told this to me at one time, and I share this with people when I think it's appropriate. This is not meant to be offensive, or hurtful, or mean. This is meant to make you a better poker player. Hearing this made me a MUCH better player.

You ready? Okay. It time to realize and accept the fact that, right now, you suck at poker. Now, this does not make you a bad person. It does not mean you kick puppies or sympathize with Nazis. It does not mean you are stupid either. You just don't know what you are doing at a poker table. B/c you suck at poker.

The reason I'm rubbing this in a little (the fact that you suck at poker) is b/c I think it's important that you accept it as truth. No, even more, you need to embrace it. Then you can get better. It's time to deconstruct yr game. Only after you have been totally honest with yrself about yr ability level can you begin to get good, or at least significantly better.

Hope you do well in the future.

EDIT: This applies to hold em. You could probably school me in stud (I see you post on that board).

Sasnak

07-06-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Plenty of good advice on this thread. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel, since I think pretty much everything everyone else has said is dead on.

Okay 2+2 is about honesty and tough love. So I'm gonna offer you some tough love. Someone told this to me at one time, and I share this with people when I think it's appropriate. This is not meant to be offensive, or hurtful, or mean. This is meant to make you a better poker player. Hearing this made me a MUCH better player.

You ready? Okay. It time to realize and accept the fact that, right now, you suck at poker. Now, this does not make you a bad person. It does not mean you kick puppies or sympathize with Nazis. It does not mean you are stupid either. You just don't know what you are doing at a poker table. B/c you suck at poker.

The reason I'm rubbing this in a little (the fact that you suck at poker) is b/c I think it's important that you accept it as truth. No, even more, you need to embrace it. Then you can get better. It's time to deconstruct yr game. Only after you have been totally honest with yrself about yr ability level can you begin to get good, or at least significantly better.

Hope you do well in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

What Greg J means here is, you suck at poker. Sometimes he beats around the bush a lot. But don't worry about it. 99% of everybody sucked at poker at one time. And the "tough love" thing??? Well, they wouldn't do it unless they cared.

Can't begin to tell you how many times I felt like a fool here. Even still do at times and most likely will again in the future.

Here's my learning curve. Finally got preflop down and why you play certain cards at certain points. So I didn't need the hand chart handy any longer. Then I worked on my flop game. Got my PFR up and AF moving. Next was working the Turn, looking for redraws, reading the board and actions of the players. Now I'm focusing on the River and value betting, etc. I can still use a lot of work but I've managed to get to 2/4. You'll get there too if you read, post, discuss and develop a thick skin. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

~

AASooted

07-06-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, BB calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, BB raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Beginner posting blind:

First of all, there's no way I'm seeing a flop with this hand UTG.

On the flop, I'd probably call. You have middle pair and a gutshot (although the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif is tainted). If I thought a raise would fold someone, I'd consider that.

If you're certain UTG+1 will bet, I like the CR on the turn. You probably have the best hand, so you want to get more bets in.

On the river, there's no way I'm betting. You're playing the board, and anyone with a Q beats you. I'm check/calling here, and I'm expecting to lose.

jrz1972

07-06-2005, 02:28 PM

RiverTheNuts

07-06-2005, 02:30 PM

My 2 cents here is at .5/1 you bet until someone tells you otherwise, value bet way more than you think is right, but be able to fold to raises... they never raise, so when they do its either a total bluff or they have the goods

Marquis

07-06-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You ready? Okay. It time to realize and accept the fact that, right now, you suck at poker. Now, this does not make you a bad person. It does not mean you kick puppies or sympathize with Nazis. It does not mean you are stupid either. You just don't know what you are doing at a poker table. B/c you suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was so harsh but so funny. Oh, and you're going to hell.

hizo1

07-06-2005, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You ready? Okay. It time to realize and accept the fact that, right now, you suck at poker. Now, this does not make you a bad person. It does not mean you kick puppies or sympathize with Nazis. It does not mean you are stupid either. You just don't know what you are doing at a poker table. B/c you suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was so harsh but so funny. Oh, and you're going to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the OP, I have to reiterate that the harsh words are meant to help you and are NOT meant to ridicule you. The above comment I think is only making fun of how harsh posters here can be. If anything I enjoy the frankness of comments here because the advice (almost always great) sticks in your head that much better.

jrz1972

07-06-2005, 03:12 PM

A guy's first night at 2+2, his ass is a wad of cookie dough. After a few weeks he's carved out of wood.

Rasputin

07-06-2005, 03:33 PM

Doesn't Dr Al say in Psychology of Poker that one of the greatest traits of the best players is a brutal honesty with themselves about their own game?

When you start to tell yourself you suck at poker, you're beginning to not suck at poker.

Or so I keep telling myself /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

hizo1

07-06-2005, 03:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you start to tell yourself you suck at poker, you're beginning to not suck at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

so true

detruncate

07-06-2005, 03:56 PM

Before you can take off the training wheels (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=495010&page=&v iew=&sb=5&o=&fpart=), you'd be well advised to work on your balance.

Find a chart. SSH, WLLH, ITH, whatever. I wrote out the WLLH charts long hand. It doesn't really matter which one you pick. Just follow it. Religiously. Burn it into your brain to the point where you can't imagine playing 9To anywhere (let alone in EP). By the time you're ready to re-evaluate, you'll be equipped to consider it.

Err on the side of tightness pf and try to simplify your post flop game. Push big edges. Let little ones go, especially if you're not sure whether they're edges at all. We all play "fit or fold", we just tend to "fit" more often as we become better at correctly evaluating our relative hand strength. But everyone needs to start somewhere, and Lee Jones will make you money if you listen to what he has to say.

Jones will take care of the "what" and give you time to work out the "why". Read books (TOP, SSH). Read 2+2. Respond to posts. Think about your play. And gradually open up your game as you become more comfortable with the fundamentals.

Write out an odds chart if you're not already familiar with the numbers. Carefully count outs. Tell yourself why you're making each play instead of just playing by wrote or feel. Incorporate new ideas as you become comfortable with them. Ruthlessly evaluate your game -- not by looking at stats or $s, but by how well you understand the ideas you're working with and how successfully you're applying them in game conditions.

Baby step your way to fun and profit.

And never, ever delude yourself into thinking that your last 5,10,20,50K hands tell you what you need to know about the quality of your game. Variance is a capricious bitch. Beautiful. Irresistible. Chronically unfaithful. She makes us feel invincible, knows just when to turn the knife. And despite all the abuse, deep down we know we can't live without her. Wouldn't want to. Even as we half-heartedly try to convince ourselves otherwise. (feel free to transpose genders if need be)

Best of luck and happy pokering.

Uppercut

07-06-2005, 04:39 PM

[quoteCheck/call that river if it's one to you, if it's 2 or more then fold, any Q or 6 has you dead to rites.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he needs to worry about someone with a six, given that board.

Greg J

07-06-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And never, ever delude yourself into thinking that your last 5,10,20,50K hands tell you what you need to know about the quality of your game. Variance is a capricious bitch. Beautiful. Irresistible. Chronically unfaithful. She makes us feel invincible, knows just when to turn the knife. And despite all the abuse, deep down we know we can't live without her. Wouldn't want to. Even as we half-heartedly try to convince ourselves otherwise. (feel free to transpose genders if need be)

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow.

Paragraphs like this are why you need to post more. Nice.

DerFleischmeister

07-06-2005, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My V$PIP is around 25, pfr 8-9

[/ QUOTE ]

The PFR% is too low for a VPIP of 25. I know of people who are winners at .50/1 with a VPIP of 25% (I'm 19% myself), but they are also PFRing about 13-15% of the time. (Mine is 9%.) Normally, your PFR% in a full ring game should be about half of your VPIP%. Find more hands to raise with and more hands to fold (like the T9o here. I would only play this on the button for a blind steal if it was folded to me, and then only with tight blinds.)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to SD about 37 and winning just over 40.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to the river with a few too many marginal hands. The combination of a slightly high WtSD% and a significantly low W$SD% tells us this. "Ideal" numbers for all of the PT stats can be found here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1659321&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)..but don't get too attached to stats. They are a general guide to finding large-scale holes in your game. The best way to address marginal questions is posting hands right here.

[ QUOTE ]
a VP$IP of 95 and a PFR% of 12

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not a LP...that is a LAG, and he is immediately on your left...the worst place for a LAG. Change seats/tables (especially if this table is playing as tight as 17-20% VPIP), if his actions are controlling the table. You want LAGs/maniacs on your right, for the most part. The combination of a tight table and the one LAG at your table on your immediate left is a recipe for disaster. There are MUCH BETTER tables to be had on PP .50/1. If a donk like me can beat .50/1 for 2.5 BB/100, almost anybody can.

SSHE is probably THE BEST book in existence for PP .50/1 (and PP 2/4, for that matter). Read And Heed, when it gets to you.

[ QUOTE ]
What prompted me to post this thread is that today a player sat down at Party with $20 and turned it into $100 within about 2 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

LAGs will frequently do this. LAGs will even more frequently sit down with $100 and turn it into $0. These swings are a side effect of their playing style. It is not a long-term winning style of play...it just appears to be.

sexdrugsmoney

07-06-2005, 08:21 PM

Thanks for the replies, its given me alot to think about.

Gregj is right, I suck at Poker, I have no delusions about this, but I want to get better.

I take responsibility for my actions, but I've been told alot of conflicting stuff from lots of people and books.

When I first started out at .5/1 I played tight but didn't make any money.

People kept saying about the 'donks' at .5/1 and "crushing" games and so I got a bit more aggressive.

If I was playing 5/10 I'd play differently, I'd respect my opponents, at .5/1 I don't believe them, and want to "see"!

I might have to go back to my tight strategy.

Sasnak, I reckecked PT: v$pip 96.09 - pfr 12.50.

I get PT to autorate my players using a persons rules on this forum. However now I'm going to scrap that and use bisonbisons' found here: link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=923884&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)

With all the "crushing" talk and second hand SSH info I've heard from the forums it sounds as if you are supposed to "push" your opponents and bet strongly with middle pair as in Low Limit they are just as likely not to have an Ace if it flops (Ed Millers "Lee Jones Monsters Under the Bed" post). Wheras I would have thrown away my KQ if the flop came 2KA and I checked and it was bet according to Jones' advice.

I have to get that SSH book but suspect it has been lost in the mail. (been waiting 6 weeks for it)

Cheers guys,
SDM

Sasnak

07-08-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With all the "crushing" talk and second hand SSH info I've heard from the forums it sounds as if you are supposed to "push" your opponents and bet strongly with middle pair as in Low Limit they are just as likely not to have an Ace if it flops (Ed Millers "Lee Jones Monsters Under the Bed" post). Wheras I would have thrown away my KQ if the flop came 2KA and I checked and it was bet according to Jones' advice.

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I'll search for EM's post later unless you have a quick link for me.

Maybe you're misunderstanding some of the concepts SSH and others preach around here. Going aggro and raising just to be raising to increase your PFR stats, or limping into a pot with a marginal hand becasue you need to get your VP up, is wrong. Look for the situations where it is correct to do so against certain types of opponents, etc.

You also aren't wanting to "push your opponents"... You're wanting to "push your EDGES". Don't "push your opponents" with middle pair. Push your edge when you have an over card along with middle pair and a BDFD or BDSD and a favorable board to yourself. Don't take "push middle pair" as a blanket statement.

The difference is in knowing when to push, when to call and when to release.

~

silvershade

07-08-2005, 07:24 PM

I think that you need to stress just how long long term can be at these tables, you could play well and be down after 10,000 hands pretty easily. Given long enough playing good poker you will ( almost ) certainly win but its not unthinkable to go weeks losing if you only play a couple thousand hands a week.

Paxosmotic

07-08-2005, 07:29 PM

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I think that you need to stress just how long long term can be at these tables, you could play well and be down after 10,000 hands pretty easily. Given long enough playing good poker you will ( almost ) certainly win but its not unthinkable to go weeks losing if you only play a couple thousand hands a week.

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In more advanced games I'd agree, but with Party .5/1, I will respectfully disagree, and almost certainly get pounced on by a lot of supporters of the Variance Movement. If you're losing money after 10k hands at .5/1, it is not variance at all, you are simply a losing player.