Is it folding time for these pocket pairs?

[Guy McSucker]

Two pocket pairs that might want to be folded. The first is closer than the second. Both from Party $5/10 where I seem to be stuck after dropping down from $10/20 for a "less stressful playing experience". Ha.

Number one

TT on the button. UTG open-raises, folded to me, I 3-bet, SB caps and we take the flop three ways. Neither UTG nor SB have demonstrated preflop lunacy in the past, but of course neither of them has proper raising standards either, so I assume UTG has any old raising hand and SB is serious enough.

Flop: 9 9 3. Weirdly it is checked to me. I bet and the SB check-raises. UTG calls. I call.

Turn: K. SB bets, UTG calls.

Is it folding time now? Would anyone have taken the freebie on the flop?

Number two

KK in the BB. One limper, button (reasonable) raises, SB (maniac) 3-bets, I cap and we take the flop four ways.

Flop: A 6 3. SB bets. I call. Limper folds. Button raise. SB calls. I call.

Turn: 9. SB bets.

I think now is the time to let it go, don't you?

Should I have raised the flop? Or perhaps mucked? Getting 17-1 and with the SB in maniac mode it's hard to muck...

Guy.

[Roy6]

#1 Unless UTG is very bad, I'd fold the turn
#2 You're in great position. I'd raise the flop and see what happens. If there are callers behind you, u might let it go on the turn if you don't improve. If button 3-bets, it's a safe fold on the flop IMO.

[GetThere1Time]

#1: A fold is probably in order on this turn but when a hand plays this strangely I find myself calling it down more often then not. And I'm never taking a freebee on this flop.

#2: I'm mucking on the turn. I think the flop play is fine though. There's a possibility of a raise behind on the turn and plus the chance the maniac actually having it for once.

[cartman]

HAND 1:
No way I take the freebie on the flop. Even it screams checkraise attempt by the small blind, I still bet. I want the pot heads up if possible so I'm happy to help him face UTG w two cold. Also, enough monkeys will pull this move with AK that you may very well have the best hand. The King hitting the turn makes your hand a complete nightmare, but by my estimate there are 11 big bets in the pot when it gets to you on the turn. Assuming SB bets the river, even if UTG folds it will cost you 2 big bets to win 12 to call down. Is your hand good 1 time in 7? I doubt it, but the dream prospect of another T on the river (provided SB doesn't have KK) makes it a call down for me. What a nightmare.

HAND 2: I would raise the maniac on the flop 100% of the time. If the button 3-bets I would credit him with at least an Ace and proceed accordingly. The way you played it, unfortunately I think I would have to raise the turn in desperation because SB (if he is a true maniac) could have exactly any two cards. What a nightmare.

Of course and as always, I could be dead wrong.

Cartman

[wheelz]

#1 I play the same then fold the turn
#2 He's a maniac, raise the flop. Given how you played the flop, yes fold the turn.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
#2 If button 3-bets, it's a safe fold on the flop IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If button 3-bets we've got pot odds to chase a 2 outer, so have to see the turn on this one.

[GetThere1Time]

[ QUOTE ]
#2 He's a maniac, raise the flop. Given how you played the flop, yes fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a flop call accomplishes a lot this hand. A raise'll make the button call/raise with a hand that's beating us and fold a hand that's drawing super slim. If we call the button can overcall down with a hand like JJ or TT. A flop call also lets us see what the buttons action is without putting in two bets on the flop. Then we can play the rest of the hand accordingly.

If the button doesn't raise the flop I still probably just call/call/call, letting the SB bet god knows what and the button call with what seems like a worse hand than kings.

[wheelz]

I just fear that calling the maniac's bet announces to the button "I don't have an ace," and lets him play us off a better hand. I doubt that happens often though.

I also thought there was maybe a small chance that we could get button to fold a weakish ace, but I doubt that happens ever. So you're probably right.

[obithrawn]

Hand 1 I also bet the flop, then fold the turn.

Hand 2 I like a raise on the flop, but as it played out I am folding the turn.