JJ on an A-rag flop- 3 different lines....

[@bsolute_luck]

well here's the question: following is the same hand but i'll put up 3 different ways that it could have been played. i'd like to hear your thoughts on how you might play each situation the same or different- preflop remains the same, just the flop play.

Reads:
UTG+1 : raising standards are normal (QQ, AKo, TT, AQo i've seen so far). a little loose preflop and open limps with marginal hands. passive postflop (after 67 hands .8AF - have seen slowplay a flopped fullhouse).

BB is your typical loose/passive - almost any 2 cards.

Hero is MP2 with JJ
Preflop
UTG folds, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop 9SB A/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif
okay....

Situation #1
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 &amp; BB call. what would you do on the turn if a blank fell and checked to you?

Situation #2
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="blue">Hero....?</font>

Situation #3
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="blue">Hero...??</font>

Thanks for your help.

[sirana]

My first try on other's hands, so don't expect much ;-)

1st line: I'd continue betting on the turn, since I don't see a reason to put one of them at an ace. Fold to a raise.

2nd line: since it's only 6-1 to you, I'd probably fold. Even if opponents don't have an ace, you are endangered to beeing outdrawn and have only two outs.

3rd line: looks like a clear fold to me. Since BB called, UTG+1 can't be protecting, so his checkraise is for value. with only two outs you have no real redraw chance. I don't think UTG+1 is bluffraising nearly often enough to make a call profitable.

[McGahee]

#1 - bet turn &amp; check river
#2 - fold
#3 - fold

[Fantam]

I counted 6.5 sb preflop. Anyway....

Situation 1:
I would bet the turn after a blank fell if checked to, particularly as BB and UTG also check-called the flop.

Situation 2:
I would raise UTG's flop bet. Thats because UTG might just have an OESD and my raise might fold out BB. If UTG 3-bet the flop, I would call, but fold UI to a follow up turn bet.

Situation 3:
I would call UTG's flop check-raise, but fold the turn UI to a bet from UTG.

I dont know whether you would play these situations the same way as me, but thats probably what I would have done.

[madscratch]

Situation 1 I bet out.

Situation 2 I raise. If he re-raises I fold.

Situation 3 I fold.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation #1
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 &amp; BB call. what would you do on the turn if a blank fell and checked to you?[/b]

[/ QUOTE ]

bet!
[ QUOTE ]
Situation #2
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="blue">Hero....?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
i think long and hard about folding, but then my hand clicks call and i end up folding the turn unimproved. but hey, we don't want people taking shots at us on the flop, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Situation #3
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="blue">Hero...??</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

here i can see folding the flop.

Also, a note. Its often hard to comment on the right read based play in this sitution, because an AF of 0.8 doesn't mean that much to me. More useful would be the knowledge and feel that I get at the table, like "bets any pair on the flop", "likes to checkraise w/top pair", etc...

[imported_The Vibesman]

Is UTG+1 limping in or raising pre-flop? I'm reading it as a raise...

#1: I'd fire again on the turn, and fold to a raise. If only BB called I'd fire again on the river. He could be playing a pair of 7's and backdoor str8 draw or something silly. If both called or only UTG and checked to me on the river I would check behind. There I would have to feel with two passive players still in the hand that I am probably behind.

#2; should probably fold, if UTG is raising pre-flop w/ normal standards then it seems over half the hands he likely has beat you. If he had limped in I would raise, planning on putting my tail between my legs at a sign of aggression.
#3. The checkraise really makes me think I am behind, and should probably fold on the flop. I have a bad habit of calling this raise and folding the turn unimproved, but I don't recommend it.

[Marquis]

Situation #1
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 &amp; BB call. what would you do on the turn if a blank fell and checked to you?

Check. You're almost always behind here when they both call this flop.

Situation #2
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero....?

Folds. I don't see any need to show down this hand against this player.

Situation #3
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero...??

Folds quickly.

[sirana]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
I counted 6.5 sb preflop. Anyway....

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem... I was counting in the rake ... Ahemm... *looking ashamed*

[crownjules]

Situation 1: Bet out again. You have been given no reason not to. If UTG+1 C/Rs a turn blank, I'd fold.

Situation 2: Raise. Call a 3-bet. Fold the turn UI if bet into.

Situation 3: Fold. A C/R from an ordinarily passive player means I'm beat here.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation 3:
I would call UTG's flop check-raise, but fold the turn UI to a bet from UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't do that. It's rarely right do call with a pocket pair on the flop with the intent of folding the turn UI.

[@bsolute_luck]

To tilt: i know about the .8 being limited, but i have only 67 hands on the guy, but so far he slowplayed a flopped fullhouse- he waited 'til the turn to c/r. also the .8 should give some indication that he lets others do the betting for him. i did the best i could describing him.

To everyone else: Thanks for your replies. seems we have some differing opinions.

Situation #1
is how the actual hand went down. a Jack hits on the turn, the other 2 continue to call down and MHIG for showdown. UTG+1 shows AQo, BB A3o. my question about this hand was if UTG+1 had been more aggressive, if he could have saved himself some $$ and actually won the pot himself. and i don't think i'd have bet the turn again if checked to given my read of the 2 players.

Situation #2
a person with .8 postflop aggression that leads into a preflop aggressor has the Ace, so really i think folding to be the best option in situation #2.

i really don't understand the raise and fold to a 3-bet line- is that for information or what? i think that has been discouraged by other more experienced players.

Situation #3
This is the one that i think i find interesting. people are willing to call/reraise hand #2 when bet into but will fold once c/r after already putting money in.

this probably is where my main question now lies because typically once i put the money in and am c/r here on the flop, i'll call and fold the turn UI.

[VoraciousReader]

1. I bet again. I'm not slowing down until somebody plays back at me. (Did UTG call or raise preflop?) If UTG raises me on the turn, I probably fold.

2. I fold. I may not be beaten now, but if I'm behind, I definitely don't have enough outs to fight for this, and a passive player just bet into the preflop raiser.

3. I fold this even faster.

[2moreTerps]

is 'grunching' when you reply before reading anyone else's thoughts?

my thoughts:
Situation #1
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 &amp; BB call. what would you do on the turn if a blank fell and checked to you?

Bet, I'm not checking in fear of being check/called, check/raised by someone.

Situation #2
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero....?

You can't fold, and calling isn't good because you have the same problem on the turn and teh river so I raise

Situation #3
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, Hero...??

I think you have to get him credit for the A here which means you have 2 outs and you can't call to see another card. fold

[madscratch]

[ QUOTE ]
To tilt: i know about the .8 being limited, but i have only 67 hands on the guy, but so far he slowplayed a flopped fullhouse- he waited 'til the turn to c/r. also the .8 should give some indication that he lets others do the betting for him. i did the best i could describing him.

To everyone else: Thanks for your replies. seems we have some differing opinions.

Situation #1
is how the actual hand went down. a Jack hits on the turn, the other 2 continue to call down and MHIG for showdown. UTG+1 shows AQo, BB A3o. my question about this hand was if UTG+1 had been more aggressive, if he could have saved himself some $$ and actually won the pot himself. and i don't think i'd have bet the turn again if checked to given my read of the 2 players.

Situation #2
a person with .8 postflop aggression that leads into a preflop aggressor has the Ace, so really i think folding to be the best option in situation #2.

i really don't understand the raise and fold to a 3-bet line- is that for information or what? i think that has been discouraged by other more experienced players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, since that was me, yeah, I think you're probably right. I was thinking I'd want to learn if he's really got an A. It'll cost me 1 SB if he 3-bets and I fold. OTOH, any A-rag still has you beat, and villian is likely not folding any A, I suppose. Add to that the .8 stat and I can see that folding is not bad.

How much does this .8 number affect things? Would your line change if this number was higher?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
To tilt: i know about the .8 being limited, but i have only 67 hands on the guy, but so far he slowplayed a flopped fullhouse- he waited 'til the turn to c/r. also the .8 should give some indication that he lets others do the betting for him. i did the best i could describing him.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i know. i wasn't trying to be intentionally bitchy.
i guess i generally go by gut feeling in situations like that...and i can't (yet) distill my read into an appropriate aggression number. so he's passive, but that doesn't mean either of them have an ace...

sometimes one does, sometimes both do (rare!) - but i think betting the turn is a must even if you don't hit trips on the turn. and yes, he could have possibly won the hand by playing more aggressively.

[TomBrooks]

Hero is MP2 with JJ
Flop 9SB A/images/graemlins/spade.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/club.gif

Situation #1
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 &amp; BB call. turn blank and checked to you? BET

Situation #2
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="blue">Hero....</font> FOLDS

Situation #3
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="blue">Hero...</font> FOLDS

[thesharpie]

#1 I bet the turn. Costs the same as calling a river bet and prevents giving a free card.

#2 and #3 I fold. Before he even bets the flop we're behind most of his possible hands. The fact that he's passive and just bet into us makes it easier to fold.