Fun with Monsters ... [under the bed]

[Toddster18]

Hi Guys-

After getting reamed on my last post... (ha)... I've got another somewhat interesting hand.

Stars $200PLO. I have played less than one orbit, and happened to double up on top set vs. middle set situation. I have approximately $450. Villain is one of two deep-stacked players at the table, with a little ovewr $1000. I have no read on villain, and have never played a hand with him.

I raise pot UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Flat called in 2 spots, including main villain on button. The blinds hop out.

Flop comes 7/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif. Sweet. I bet pot - $24. Everyone hops out but villain, who flat calls.

Turn come 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. Huh. I lead pot - $72. Villain again flat calls. I figure villain must have top set and be hoping to catch... (and the disaster lights about the straight flush start going off in my head).

River comes total blank. I can't remember, but something like 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Board reads 7/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Pot sits at $216. I'm to act.

a) what is your action?

b) I chose to lead the full pot - who knows, maybe its some weirdo with a Khigh flush or something. This leaves me with ~$130 behind or something. Villain waits approximately 4-5 seconds before raising the pot back at me. Your action?

c) With only $130 or so behind, I don't really think this is that tough of a decision. If persay I still had another $1k behind (enough that I'd have to call the full raise), do you fold to the bet?

d) If your answer to c) is no, is there ever any situation where you would? I can't help but think villain played the exact role of the flopped straight flush here.

Interesting? No? Thoughts?

-Todd

[RickyG]

I think you should check call on the river for two reasons. First, if he missed his boat, then he might be induced to bluff at the pot. at this point the only value of a raise is that he will not get to see your cards, but there wont be much doubt as to what you have. The other reason is that you pay off less when the straight flush is actually less. I dont think too many people would raising you here with k-high flush, unless they thought you were bluffing.

Perhaps this is a little weak, but oh well

[Tilt]

I would check call the river. How can he pay that bet off without the straight flush? Possibly with the K high, but I think he would have raised you before this with that.

[macman]

Tough one. I would likely check call. This is one where I'd likely have to make him show it to me but I don't want to pay one penny more than I have to.

[Rosie5]

while the board looks scarier with the 4 flush cards on it, I still put him all in every time.

anyone who doesn't plays this game scared.

If he's got the straightflush he's played it badly. One one of the streets he should've given you enough ammo to go all in by mini-raising or potting it himself so you don't have a chance to fold on a board pair

[EjnarPik]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got the straightflush he's played it badly. One one of the streets he should've given you enough ammo to go all in by mini-raising or potting it himself so you don't have a chance to fold on a board pair

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he do that? You put him all-in anyway.

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I still put him all in every time.

anyone who doesn't plays this game scared.



[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible advice for a deep stack mid stakes situation. No one is telling him to fold. We are just telling him to keep the pot manageable with the third nuts.

[joewatch]

I've run into this situation a few times. I think that potting it on the turn is the wrong play. You are giving only 2:1 odds to a set, so most reasonable players will not call. You will only get called by a hand that has you beat, the str8 flush. If you bet only half pot, then you will be giving 3:1 odds to a set, and might get called here incorrectly since the set needs at least 4:1 odds to be played correctly. Then you can check-call the river and win more vs. a poorly played set and lose less vs. a str8 flush.

[Toddster18]

[ QUOTE ]
I've run into this situation a few times. I think that potting it on the turn is the wrong play. You are giving only 2:1 odds to a set, so most reasonable players will not call. You will only get called by a hand that has you beat, the str8 flush. If you bet only half pot, then you will be giving 3:1 odds to a set, and might get called here incorrectly since the set needs at least 4:1 odds to be played correctly. Then you can check-call the river and win more vs. a poorly played set and lose less vs. a str8 flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. I think this is weak. 3:1 is good enough for most people with sets to call, figuring they can eek out the remaining neccessary odds with implied odds - Most people figure they can extract some money out of the flush-holder on a river-paired board.

As for all you check-callers... Do you do the same if you hold the nut full house when you start fearing quads? Just seems like i'm giving away free information when the guy missed, or plays bad, or is a totally idiot with Khigh flush, or somehow thinks i'm a maniac or something.

-Todd

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]


Terrible advice for a deep stack mid stakes situation. No one is telling him to fold. We are just telling him to keep the pot manageable with the third nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, you're trying to spin it like his hand is weak by saying "the third nuts". If you can't say something sensible please don't even comment on what I'm saying.

If you do what I say every time in this situation (a 3 way raised pot, this isn't 9 handed omaha here) it will pay for the money you lose when he has the straightflush.

By the way, I love how you said my play was "terrible". Oh yeah it's so ghastly that I'd go all in with the ace high flush on an unpaired board. I must fix this COSTLY leak in my omaha game...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he's got the straightflush he's played it badly. One one of the streets he should've given you enough ammo to go all in by mini-raising or potting it himself so you don't have a chance to fold on a board pair

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he do that? You put him all-in anyway.

Ejnar Pik, Southern-Docks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think u misread my post. I'm saying he (the villian) should've done it before the river or turn came off so he would've allowed the money to go all in before a scare card

[joewatch]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh. I think this is weak. 3:1 is good enough for most people with sets to call, figuring they can eek out the remaining neccessary odds with implied odds - Most people figure they can extract some money out of the flush-holder on a river-paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toddster, if you don't understand why getting somebody to call with the incorrect odds is +EV, you need to read 2+2's definitive book The Theory of Poker. On the other hand, if you ARE giving villains the correct implied to call a 3:1 bet, you are paying off way to often on the river.

[Toddster18]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh. I think this is weak. 3:1 is good enough for most people with sets to call, figuring they can eek out the remaining neccessary odds with implied odds - Most people figure they can extract some money out of the flush-holder on a river-paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Toddster, if you don't understand why getting somebody to call with the incorrect odds is +EV, you need to read 2+2's definitive book The Theory of Poker. On the other hand, if you ARE giving villains the correct implied to call a 3:1 bet, you are paying off way to often on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joewatch-

A) Typo. Should have read 2:1, i.e. - many players at this level will call with top set, figuring they will get money if the board pairs. (And how the hell would my typo imply that I don't understand that when an opponents makes a mistake, you are making money?)

B) Don't patronize. Come on, man.

C) I still feel that betting a fraction of the pot with an Ace High flush on an unpaired board is weak. It simply allows drawers to draw cheaper when in fact if they are drawing, and are willing to call somewhat incorrectly, they are probably willing to call more incorrectly. Right?

-Todd

[Tilt]

Toddster - what were the results here? I'd be interested to know.

[Toddster18]

[ QUOTE ]
Toddster - what were the results here? I'd be interested to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called. Villain showed down T/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/club.gifxx for the flopped uber-nuts.

-Todd

[tlow03]

OUCH.