rivered broadway

[TightIsRight]

Stats:
UTG 13/2.3/1.0 (176 hands)
UTG +1 57/0/2.0 (26 hands)
MP3 32/1.9/1.2 (157 hands)
SB 13/0/4.0 (15 hands)
BB is mentally challenged


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (6 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

River: (3 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, Hero folds, SB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

edit: yanked the part where I imply the results. let's see what you think first...

[rivered_again]

Did I read that right? You folded an ace high straight? Sure there was a possible flush and you were being bet into, but that's worth at least a call. You'll win this hand more often than you'll lose it.

And I doubt anyone has a flush because the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif and K/images/graemlins/heart.gif are both accounted for. The highest flush card someone could be holding is Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, which they shouldn't be playing for a flush in the first place (unless Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif but they'd have raised pre-flop if that were the case)

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
which they shouldn't be playing for a flush in the first place (unless QJ but they'd have raised pre-flop if that were the case)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is Party $.5/1. What people should and shouldn't be limping is not a relevant argument.

[rivered_again]

Fair enough.

I still think it's +EV to call.

Then again, it is a very small pot, so maybe it's not worth finding out if nobody had the flush.

[TightIsRight]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is Party $.5/1. What people should and shouldn't be limping is not a relevant argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif have been popular all night

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]

Then again, it is a very small pot, so maybe it's not worth finding out if nobody had the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, at the point of my river decision I was getting 3-1 on a call with the possibility of being reraised behind me in 2 spots yet to act and 1 that has already bet.

Here's a more interesting question: how many bets have to be in the pot to make this a call? (Of course, if there were any bets on the earlier streets I would have folded. But just for argument's sake, how big of a pot does it take to get a call here?)

[xenthebrain]

You are weak.
There are many possible hands they could have bet with that you beat.
A set, Top pair, two pair, also a straight (maybe even lower).
This call is with no doubt +EV.

[TightIsRight]

Thanks for calling me weak (my AF is quite healthy, FWIW).

Anyway, I agree that there are many hands that can bet in this position, but what about hands that can raise a bet with 3 people behind? Also, hands like a set and top 2 don't make much sense according to the action. The actions is certainly not inconsistent with 2 junky suited cards. Again, I do not close the action and the pot is small.

Anyone else?

[xenthebrain]

Your AF doesn't tell you if you fold too much.

No one showed agression, the number of players yet to act doesn't concern the raiser much.

[TightIsRight]

yeah ok, I must be weak based on this one hand. ANYWAY, tell me how a set or top 2 are possible holdings here.

[xenthebrain]

Why top two?
Could be QT, 9T, 9Q, AT whatever.

Never seen it that a LL player checkes a turned set?

There isn't really much to argue about....

You are fearing just one hand of many possible holdings.

He may have had the flush in THIS hand. But if you always fold in these spots you will fold many winners.

[TightIsRight]

I misread the part about "top pair, two pair" as being "top two," my fault.

In a 6 handed pot with people who play any 2 suited, the pot size, and action, I assessed this as a fold. But I think it's close so I posted it. Nevertheless, I appreciate your input.

[TightIsRight]

Here you go dude /images/graemlins/smile.gif :
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results below:
Hero has Qc Kh (one pair, jacks).
CO has Kc Tc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.75 BB.

[Dave G.]

I'm inclined to bet the flop. I'm not expecting everyone to fold, but I want a chance to pick up a free card on the turn if I want it. If we improve our BD flush draw on the turn, a free card is worth a lot to us. Even if we don't, getting a free shot at a gutshot is great. We have position on the field, so we should be using it.

As far as the river fold goes, well, you have no real idea what anyone is playing. You need to be good here 33% of the time. I think that's certainly true, so I'd call it and go for the overcall from UTG. If it's reraised behind me, then I'm unhappy and will be searching for a kitten to kick.

I think folding is an error, but I don't think it is a large one in this small pot.

[@bsolute_luck]

why not bet the flop? you have a BDFD, 4 outs to the straight, since it's checked to you, maybe your Ks are you good, and you're closing the action.

check the turn UI and then you could have a better idea on the river. just an idea. stats are tough to read.

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]
stats are tough to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean that I should post them differently (and if so how?), or that stats in general don't tell me much here, or that I don't have enough hands, or what?

Thanks

[@bsolute_luck]

stats are readable. stats can tell you somethings, but if there are people at the table that play any Ace but don't bet because of their kicker and will call you down regardless, then betting the flop is pointless.

but if your read is that they would have bet, since they didn't, you have a better chance of your King outs being good. i try to watch/take notes of how people play, so that's why i said stats are tough to read for me.

[TightIsRight]

Thanks. Yes, I didn't want to bet that flop b/c of the preponderance of Ax call downs going on, plus it would be nice to hit a gutter for free against so many opponents. I think we all can agree that the big blind outplayed everyone here.