MTT Hand - Hidden Jacks hand

[Burdzthewurd]

10+1 Nightly Party Stud MTT


Bubble just bursted, I'm gunning for final table, not to inch up in money.

I have about 5k, limits are 400/800, bring-in is 200

No 8s, other 9s, 7s, or Ts are showing as doorcards

Short stack brings in for 200

Big stack with 14k calls with Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

Villain completes with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif doorcard
- Villain was at previous table of mine, always raises A doorcard, raises high cards on 3rd and usually check/calls or check/folds, not overly aggrssive after 3rd

I have (J /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, what's my action? What's my plan on 4th if I continue here? More to come later

[RayGarlington]

fold

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
fold

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds about right.

[beta1607]

[ QUOTE ]
not overly aggrssive after 3rd


[/ QUOTE ]

Given this I want to see 4th. Are your /images/graemlins/heart.gif live? See how everyone catches on 4th and reevaluate. To make the final table you are going to have to push some small edges and I think this is one of them. Since you only have about 6.5BB left you can't really afford to pass up any potentially +EV situation because after a couple more antes and bring-ins you will be irrelevant.

Edit: I have never played a stud MTT so take my advice with a grain of salt...

[soultwist]

I think if you want to play this hand, you should be willing to play it for all your chips. Do you have any type of a read of on the Queen, like will he fold if you raise here? Can we assume that he will fold for 2 bets since he is doing well late in the tourney? If your going to play it thats the line I take. The bring in will fold, and if he doesn't you have him beat almost all the time anyway, you have the read on the other Jack, I say pop it here and drive the queen out and try to take the pot right here. Some questions I am wondering: Is it a full table still? Has the table loosened up after the bubble broke? Whats your table image, have you been stealing a lot while everyone tightened up for the bubble?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not overly aggrssive after 3rd


[/ QUOTE ]

Given this I want to see 4th. Are your /images/graemlins/heart.gif live? See how everyone catches on 4th and reevaluate. To make the final table you are going to have to push some small edges and I think this is one of them. Since you only have about 6.5BB left you can't really afford to pass up any potentially +EV situation because after a couple more antes and bring-ins you will be irrelevant.

Edit: I have never played a stud MTT so take my advice with a grain of salt...

[/ QUOTE ]

instead of pushing the small edge here, I like to wait for a spot where you are a clear favorite to get your chips in, because as you say, with only 6.5BB you are going to get stuck somewhere soon.

i only like this hand if that other J wasn't dead. if thats's the case then I say raise but be aware this could be your last hand in the tournament.

[Burdzthewurd]

A few things -

- One heart was dead
- Bring-in didn't defend much, so likely fold unless he has a monster
- Table chipleader had been somewhat passive, but would raise split Queens or a hidden big pair on 3rd, not just call
- 7-handed
- 2 aggressive medium stacks who raise any Ace or any high card when folded to them, will push around on 4th and 5th heads-up with higher board, so every pot is raised/reraised (both stacks not in this hand)

[RayGarlington]

You only have enough chips to play 1, maybe 2 hands. Your pair of jacks is dead, and you want to push this against a Q and a J that completed afterwards. These guys made it to the late stages of a tournament, give them some credit for a hand.

The 400 you have to put in to take this hand to 4th street would buy you about 6 looks at a better hand (don't know what the ante is). Plus, what if one of the hands that acts after you re-raises?

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]

instead of pushing the small edge here, I like to wait for a spot where you are a clear favorite to get your chips in, because as you say, with only 6.5BB you are going to get stuck somewhere soon.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is terribly wrong.

Here is why:

1. In these tourneys you only get 12 +- 1 hands per level (I used to play alot of these tournies). So if our hero folds this he could very very quickly only have 3BB. And then what good is getting a real hand? Yeah!!! I double up to 6BB. What good is that? You are still very close to elimination. In order to get to the final table our hero needs to play in a manner that will increase the value of future "real hands" and at the same time give our hero valuable time to look for "good spots".

In order to make it deep in these tournies you have got to get enough chips that you::
1. Threaten people
2. Can make alot of money on you good hands
3. Can survive a hand that doesn't go your way

Our hero CANNOT lose these edges. If he has to risk busting so beit.


There would be an auguement for folding this actually at the final table. Where surviving 1 or 2 spots will get you more money. But when you are far from the final table you need to keep the above list in the front of your mind.

[RayGarlington]

I don't think he is wrong to recommend waiting for a better situation. Right now, the OP is in real trouble. He has one hand to play, and this isn't a very good one. He can't threaten anyone and he can't survive a hand that doesn't go his way.

Ideally he'll find 1 shot as a late position raiser that goes his way, and he can tripple up or better.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

instead of pushing the small edge here, I like to wait for a spot where you are a clear favorite to get your chips in, because as you say, with only 6.5BB you are going to get stuck somewhere soon.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is terribly wrong.

Here is why:

1. In these tourneys you only get 12 +- 1 hands per level (I used to play alot of these tournies). So if our hero folds this he could very very quickly only have 3BB. And then what good is getting a real hand? Yeah!!! I double up to 6BB. What good is that? You are still very close to elimination. In order to get to the final table our hero needs to play in a manner that will increase the value of future "real hands" and at the same time give our hero valuable time to look for "good spots".

In order to make it deep in these tournies you have got to get enough chips that you::
1. Threaten people
2. Can make alot of money on you good hands
3. Can survive a hand that doesn't go your way

Our hero CANNOT lose these edges. If he has to risk busting so beit.


There would be an auguement for folding this actually at the final table. Where surviving 1 or 2 spots will get you more money. But when you are far from the final table you need to keep the above list in the front of your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a better use of the chips might be to try and steal a few antes and keep around that same chip count until he has a live hand.

the only other option is to raise which is 800 of his 5K, assuming it doesnt get reraised. he has to hope to take it right there or at least get the Q to fold and then get a scare card and bet out 4th and take it down there....if he calls then what do you do? I guess keep firing and pray...

I dont think just calling the completion is good because of that overcard Q

[jon_1van]

yeah....calling by FAR the worst play

[jon_1van]

If the antes/BB went up slower I'd suggest this. I just do think its the "best" play when you only get 12 hands per level.

You can easily get crap for the next 10 hands. And any BI that hit you hurt BAD.

[Burdzthewurd]

Ha, of course I chose the worst play! I just called.

My reason was this:

- It'd take a real hand (hidden big pair, maybe (AK)J) for him to bet out against two players on 4th if he caught small, I think I'd feel better about folding if he catches a 3, Qx checks to him and he bets out, probably has a big hand.
- I figure if neither players catch scary, I lead out if I catch an A/K/Q/J/9. I'd lean towards calling if I catch a card that makes me a good 3-straight AND 3-flush.

Gah, haven't gotten to play as many stud tournaments as I'd like. My logic is probably quite faulty.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
Ha, of course I chose the worst play! I just called.

My reason was this:

- It'd take a real hand (hidden big pair, maybe (AK)J) for him to bet out against two players on 4th if he caught small, I think I'd feel better about folding if he catches a 3, Qx checks to him and he bets out, probably has a big hand.
- I figure if neither players catch scary, I lead out if I catch an A/K/Q/J/9. I'd lean towards calling if I catch a card that makes me a good 3-straight AND 3-flush.

Gah, haven't gotten to play as many stud tournaments as I'd like. My logic is probably quite faulty.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you call, you can't win the pot right there, which is probably best case scenario given that your hand is partially dead and you don't want to commit all your chips if you dont have to. even if one or both of them call your raise, you are in the drivers seat since they have to think they are behind at that point. then when you catch a scare card you are that much more likely to take it down on 4th

[MrBlueNose]

Raise. Try and isolate against the other J. Get all your chips in the middle as fast as possible.

[Andy B]

I'm not really a tournament player, but I think this is a raise. The guy with the Jack is over-aggressive, and you have two Jacks in the hole, so it's fairly likely that he doesn't have a hand. You want this heads-up if possible. If the Queen three-bets, well, that sucks.

If your goal is to make the final table, to make a score, you're going to have to gamble some. I think this is a good spot for it.

[Burdzthewurd]

So after calling on 3rd (d'oh) here's what happened on 4th:

Villain caught 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or J /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Big Stack caught 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for Q /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I caught Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif for (J /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I lead out for a bet, big stack folded, Villain called

5th:

I catch 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Villain catches 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Your action?

[beta1607]

bet.

[PoorLawyer]

you gotta keep betting now. if he did have jacks, you at least now have a decent kicker with the Q (even though it is dead)

[Andy B]

Is this a trick question? Fire!

[Burdzthewurd]

I caught a 9 on 6th, betting Jacks-up while caught an offsuit 7 and called.

River I caught a Queen for Queens-up and bet again, he folded

Ack, I probably should have checked the river, but it'd seem odd for him to play hidden AA or KK that meekly, so I figured I'm going to be ahead enough to bet out and get called by a smaller two pair, who might just check behind on the river. I should have checked to induce a bluff, gr.

[Andy B]

No, you should definitely value-bet the river.