pp 6 max NL 100

[Go_Blue88]

hey normally i post in the higher stakes forum, but i've taken some time off recently and decided to move down. anyways, i'd appreciate any feedback on this one.

6 handed Hero-145 Villian 135

Fold, Hero calls 1$ with 9c10s, call, call, villian raises the minimum (to 2$), all call.

Flop: 10 7 10 checked around to villian who bets 5, hero raises to 18, folded around to villian who minreraises, hero calls.

Turn: J hero??

what's your play from here? sorry about the lack of format, but i didn't get a chance to save the hand because i had to leave. my read on villian was that he's pretty tight and passive...

[xcrack999]

Since villain is tight-passive, raised preflop, and three-betted you, you gotta assume that he has your kicker beat. I would fold on the flop.

[xorbie]

Try to see a showdown, but I'm probably dropping it if he pushes too hard. I don't think he's overplaying KK/AA here.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
Try to see a showdown, but I'm probably dropping it if he pushes too hard. I don't think he's overplaying KK/AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt the same way. What range of hands do you think he could have raising the minimum though? I at first considered AA, but then came to the same conclusion as you; it'd be completely illogical for him to play the flop like that. i can't see A 10 doing this...that just doesn't make sense, and J10 might do this. but can any of you see A 10, K10, or Q10 doing this? what do you put him on?

also, a quick edit...villian should have been the button...i screwed up the action a little bit in the original post; but it's irrelavent to the overall hand.

[fuzzbox]

I guess he has 77 then

[amoeba]

reasoning for flop raise?

[Go_Blue88]

As I mentioned, I had a hard time putting villian on a hand. I raised the flop b/c at the time i thought my hand was the best. when he minreraised, i called in the hopes of filling up, which would probably allow me to stack him. Anyways as i said:
Turn J I check, villian bets 9 here my gut told me that he had J10 and was hoping to induce a raise, but i couldn't possibly fold to that; so i called.
River 9 I checked, villian bets 15 once this happened i decided that he definately didn't have J10. if i had J10 i'd value bet at least 35; the bet of 15 looked like a 10 scared of a fullhouse. so, i decided to bet 90 (putting him all in) and he called with K10. the river was definately a nice card, but this guy played the hand like an idiot.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
As I mentioned, I had a hard time putting villian on a hand. I raised the flop b/c at the time i thought my hand was the best. when he minreraised, i called in the hopes of filling up, which would probably allow me to stack him. Anyways as i said:
Turn J I check, villian bets 9 here my gut told me that he had J10 and was hoping to induce a raise, but i couldn't possibly fold to that; so i called.
River 9 I checked, villian bets 15 once this happened i decided that he definately didn't have J10. if i had J10 i'd value bet at least 35; the bet of 15 looked like a 10 scared of a fullhouse. so, i decided to bet 90 (putting him all in) and he called with K10. the river was definately a nice card, but this guy played the hand like an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he played his hand horribly. You can his mini-raise which smelled like he had a good kicker. Here, I'd be willing to pay him off since its SH.

Is that line unreasonable?

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
hero raises to 18, folded around to villian who minreraises, hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have ~3 outs

[meow_meow]

Nice suckout sir.

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
so, i decided to bet 90 (putting him all in) and he called with K10. the river was definately a nice card, but this guy played the hand like an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

he played his hand prefectly. He had a higher kicker and min-raised you on the flop. you called, he bet enough to get paid off by you without driving you out of the pot. fortunately for you, you stuck around and rivered him.

regardless, learn from how he played his hand.

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so, i decided to bet 90 (putting him all in) and he called with K10. the river was definately a nice card, but this guy played the hand like an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

he played his hand prefectly. He had a higher kicker and min-raised you on the flop. you called, he bet enough to get paid off by you without driving you out of the pot. fortunately for you, you stuck around and rivered him.

regardless, learn from how he played his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely disagree. the fact that he only bet 9 on the turn allowed me to suckout on him. if he had bet 25-30 i would have folded. also, his river bet is awful. explain how this is good? you'd bet 15 on the river here if you thought you had the best hand? and why shouldn't i stick around to the minreraise? i feel like the implied odds are huge. please explain what i should learn from him in this hand?

[Maulik]

blue the flop call was bad. the turn call I missed, I didn't see it whatsoever, and that's fine. but if you think you're behind here the pot odds are justifying a call.

okay on that end.

[Weatherhead03]

Could also count the backdoor straight as 1.5 outs and after the J hit on the turn he has 7 outs.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
if he had bet 25-30 i would have folded

[/ QUOTE ]
He generally doesn't want you to fold if you are drawing to 3 outs. However, in this case, you had 7 win outs and 6 chop outs. The point about implied odds is a valid one that can be solved mathematically. I estimate he needs to bet about $22 to kill your implied odds if you have 3 win outs (and 6 chop outs), and bet about $36 to kill your implied odds if you have 7 outs (plus chop) - depending on actual pot/stack sizes which I am too lazy to compute precisely.

[ QUOTE ]
villian bets 15 once this happened i decided that he definately didn't have J10. if i had J10 i'd value bet at least 35; the bet of 15 looked like a 10 scared of a fullhouse

[/ QUOTE ]
This must be one of those intuitive NL things that I don't get due to lack of experience, because the logic escpaes me. Do other forum members agree with this quoted portion? Why can't it be a small bet from someone with a monster not wanting to chase you off? Why do you think that because you'd bet 35, so would he? If he is afraid as you say, why is your all-in subsequently called?

[Go_Blue88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he had bet 25-30 i would have folded

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
villian bets 15 once this happened i decided that he definately didn't have J10. if i had J10 i'd value bet at least 35; the bet of 15 looked like a 10 scared of a fullhouse

[/ QUOTE ]
This must be one of those intuitive NL things that I don't get due to lack of experience, because the logic escpaes me. Do other forum members agree with this quoted portion? Why can't it be a small bet from someone with a monster not wanting to chase you off? Why do you think that because you'd bet 35, so would he? If he is afraid as you say, why is your all-in subsequently called?

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel like he'd bet a larger fraction of the pot to (obviously) make a larger profit. to me, it seems apparent that i have a hand that i don't want to get away from, and so i'd probably call at least ten dollars more. also, his minreraise on the flop and turn bet of 9 was probably to "string me along," but the river is where he should make a good amount of money. though i can't speak for him, i think overbets cause players to make mistakes in their thinking; they convince themselves that they're ahead. he may have thought "well i appeared weak, so maybe he's just trying to push me off of my hand," sort of trying to rationalize his instinct telling him he's behind. i'm pretty sure this is what happened as he took till the last second to call.
as for your other question, it just helps me to try to see from my opponent's perspective when i'm in a hand. a lot of times i can pick off bluffs like that b/c a player's betting just doesn't make sense to me. i don't know if others do this, but that is why i do it.
if you were villian and you hit a fullhouse would you play the river like this? if the answer is no, then i think it's OK to assume that he probably wouldn't either.