Warning: Pre-Flop Question (JJ out of BB)

[W. Deranged]

I know that you all feel that pre-flop questions are uninteresting, but here is one of the few pre-flop questions that I've come across recently that I have found interesting. A friend of mine and I have had a lengthy e-mail debate about it. I'll post both of our opinions after I hear a few responses. Again, I reiterate that I think this is a genuinely interesting pre-flop question because ultimately it has to do with the question of the general line you take in heads-up pots out of position.


The hand is this: UTG+1 opponent is average but maybe slightly laggy; assume 29/18/1.7 or something like that.

Hero is BB with JJ. Folded to UTG +1 who raises. Folded around to Hero in BB.

What is Hero's play and, more importantly, what line does hero take from then forward (because that's the really interesting part).

[baronzeus]

With your description, this is an easy 3bet+lead or if he caps just call down with favorable flops. (i.e. fold if the flop is AK2 /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[shant]

I don't see the debate here. 3-bet and lead the flop. If the flop comes with an overcard(s), or he caps preflop, play poker.

[Sasnak]

It's a 3 bet here.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the debate here. 3-bet and lead the flop. If the flop comes with an overcard(s), or he caps preflop, play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

[Mike Gallo]

You can call and check raise a flop where you have an overpair to the board, or you can three bet and expect him to cap.

If you cap or he caps you need to decide based on the texture of the flop what course of action to take. If the flop comes 8 9 10 your going to war !! If it comes 8 3 5 your going to war !! If the flop brings an A K or Q, you need to proceed with caution.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
You can call and check raise a flop where you have an overpair to the board, or you can three bet and expect him to cap.

If you cap or he caps you need to decide based on the texture of the flop what course of action to take. If the flop comes 8 9 10 your going to war !! If it comes 8 3 5 your going to war !! If the flop brings an A K or Q, you need to proceed with caution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

OR u can go the HPFAP route and call it down if a favorable flop comes.

[sthief09]

against aggressive players I like to underrepresent my hand and let them overplay theirs. against more passive players I'd rather just 3-bet and bet until I meet resistance.

and as Mike said, if you're going to just call preflop, be prepared to go to war because your opponent will not think you have such a strong hand

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

OR u can go the HPFAP route and call it down if a favorable flop comes.

[/ QUOTE ]


you miss lots of value against an aggressive opponent by doing this.

[sthief09]

by calling, you don't miss out on much value preflop but put yourself in a situation where you can force your opponent to make a more costly mistake than the small fraction of a bet you gain by 3-betting.

[ThomasPHoolery]

As the person who played this hand I'll share what I did... I did 3 bet pre-flop, but the question is not do I call, play weak from here, the question is do you call with the intent of check raising and leading from there.

I *think* 3 betting is correct, but the question I have about this line is do you maximize profit this way if ahead/ minimize if behind. The reason behind 3 betting JJ most times preflop are to push your equity edge or limit the field. In this hand, it will be heads up, and the range of hands you're against don't necessarily show an appreciable equity edge. The questin is does a C/R on the flop give you more information about the hand you're likely against, or is 3 betting preflop always the correct way to play jacks. Again, the preflop decision is not made out of deciding how weak to play the hand, it's setting up your course for the rest of the hand.

Just my thoughts.

[Mike Gallo]

Tom Foolery,

Vary your play. Sometimes three bet others call. Sometimes you can play creatively, sometimes you can play straight forward.

Switch it up.

[sthief09]

AC sometime? it's been a while

[man]

I agree with a lot of what's been said on both sides, but I lean towards a preflop call and flop CR (CR in most cases). we're giving up a little bit preflop to gain more postflop, because he may fold more frequently on the flop. if you threebet and lead the flop, you'll run the risk of him folding AQ, AJ etc when it doesn't hit. if you call preflop, he'll bet any flop and [probably] call down the CR. I also like it because you get the opportunity to fold AKx, AQx flops without being too invested (maybe this is insignificant because those are so rare).

[Mike Gallo]

Send me a pm.

[ThomasPHoolery]

2 Things W. Deranged got wrong about the hand btw.

Player is UTG, not UTG + 1.
Player does not have LAGish tendancies, and is slightly above average TAG, I put his preflop raising UTG standards at AA-1010, AK, AKs-AJs.

Don't know what this changes, but just wanted to put that out there.

[Margeaux]

[ QUOTE ]
2 Things W. Deranged got wrong about the hand btw.

Player is UTG, not UTG + 1.
Player does not have LAGish tendancies, and is slightly above average TAG, I put his preflop raising UTG standards at AA-1010, AK, AKs-AJs.

Don't know what this changes, but just wanted to put that out there.

[/ QUOTE ]


In the setup offered by Deranged (hereafter known as "D-bag"), I think it's clear that you're pushing an equity edge--against a UTG+1 LAG, depending on how L this LAG is, you're facing a much wider range of hands. He could reasonably be expected to hold AA-99, A10s-AJs, KJs, KQ and AK-AQ, and he might very well hold something worse than that. IMO, you can safely three-bet that, and call the cap, then c/r/cap a brick flop.

Against a TAGish UTG raiser, I think the question is much more interesting.

I think it's questionable whether to three-bet PF for a few reasons--

1. you don't get any information from it--you could get capped or called by any of the hands in his range (AA could call/cap, AQs could cap to disguise the hand);

2. you aren't necessarily pushing an equity edge, and you're sure as [censored] not going to force him out;

3. you already have one BB in the pot, so you're not cold-calling two. So you have a lot of disguise value if you just limp and call the one bet here. Your thinking TAG opponent will not be able to narrow the range of hands you're on at all--you could be calling one bet with anything, but if he knows you're solid, there are a lot fewer hands you're 3-betting with.

This PF decision opens up this line after an undercard flop:

I c/r the flop which he is DEFINITELY leading. The c/r isn't going to whiff--HU with the UTG raiser against a BB-limp, a TAG UTG has GOT to lead this no matter what he has. So I c/r.

If he just calls my c/r, then I clearly lead if the turn and river are bricks.

If he 3-bets me on the flop, I don't cap, because he'll call the cap no matter what and I learn nothing and might well be behind. It also commits me to leading the turn, and if I get raised on the turn, I'm totally lost on what to do--I'm thinking maybe 3-bet/fold, or call down. But I don't really like where that's going . . .

Instead, I call a flop 3-bet, and no matter what comes on the turn, I c/r. I fold to a turn 3-bet, because at that point he's gotta be ahead of me and I'm drawing very thin.

I think this line puts the most pressure on your TAG opponent when he's behind, and minimizes your losses when behind, b/c you save a flop bet and turn bet in that situation... you're also not giving free cards to AK/AQ/KQ on the flop...


Margo

[elindauer]

Hi Deranged,

If you call and check the flop, most players will bet no matter the flop is or what they hold. If this describes your opponent, then you are better off calling and check-raising. Why?

Well, played this way, you reach the same place. It's the flop, you've put in 4 bets, your opponent has put in 3, and it's his action. The call check-raise line, however, has two advantages.

1. your hand is less clearly defined. In fact, for most players will put you on anything BUT JJ if you play this way.

2. you retain the option not to check-raise if the flop is really bad. Any flop with two overcards, for example, will leave you happy you did not 3-bet preflop.


I can't see any way in which 3-betting and leading is superior to calling and check-raising, unless your opponent is the type to take free cards on the flop, a true rarity these days.

Good luck.
Eric

[Margeaux]

I totally agree with this thought, elindauer... I was just discussing this with Tom Phoolery. LAG/TAG's not going to take the free card if we're accurate in calling him aggressive...

The BB limped after you got spikey and raised UTG with ATs. You're a LAG/TAG. The BB checks a brick flop to you. Do you check behind? Or do you try to take it down there? And what do you put him on if he c/r you... you have NO idea.

Margo